Look to the West Volume V: To Dream Again

[Thande]

From the far northeast capes of Newfoundland to the capes of southwest Ireland is a bit under 28 degrees of Earth's circumference. From Recife to the west capes of Sierra Leone is about the same. If the Meridian cable ran that way, and the north Atlantic one had to run directly to Nova Scotia, and perhaps for some political reason to bypass Ireland and head either for northwest Scotland or the tip of Cornwall, then the northern one would be longer, by 5 or 6 degrees--no more.

Good point, I had forgotten the shorter track taken by the OTL transatlantic cables by going north.

And why they couldn't negotiate for any point up on the West African coast close to Sierra Leone, which would give them a cable that has a shot of making that claim, if Ireland to Newfoundland does not quite count.

Because all that area is part of the Royal Africa Company/Guinea, and at the time the cable was laid, the UPSA was still in a state of cold war with the ENA and other House of Hanover possessions. Ponta Negra is the closest Meridian or Meridian-aligned point at which the cable could terminate.

Only question is, Cuba's all Carolinian now, but what Carolinian land went to America?

Also, a question for Thande. What bits of Carolina did the ENA receive in return for their half of Cuba?

I did describe this vaguely so you two have taken it the wrong way: suffice to say that both the ENA and Carolina now no longer have any Cuban territory. Consider the UPSA's hinted-at policies in the Asia-Pacific area and you may be able to work out what has happened.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

But considering that we know that Societism rises from the UPSA first, why would they test/implement it in their periphery first? Granted most of these nations are now effectively colonies of the UPSA and likely have little say in the matter, but still.

Because it would be easier and safer for the Societists to implement it in the periphery first.
The Societist government would face less opposition in the UPSA to Zones outside the UPSA where they have more space to experiment and learn how to make Caraíbas's idea a reality without fucking up.

Aren't the Teutonic knights (or at least head of their order) just another title for the Hapsburg's at this point in OTL, and therefore presumably in TTL as well?

IOTL French Emperor Napoleon did dissolve the order outside of the Hapsburg lands and let his German clients take over the secular holdings.
ITTL the French-led reorganisation of Germany was limited to Swabia and Bavaria.
TTL Teutonic order would retain holdings like in Marburg in the conservative Mittelbund outside of the Hapsburg-ruled realms.

I mean sure, they got their start as a hospital in Acre for German pilgrims, but if we are talking an extensive hospital system set up in Bavaria, don't St.John's Knights fit the bill better?

The Teutonic order did maintain hospitals in Germany.

I did describe this vaguely so you two have taken it the wrong way: suffice to say that both the ENA and Carolina now no longer have any Cuban territory. Consider the UPSA's hinted-at policies in the Asia-Pacific area and you may be able to work out what has happened.

Cuba is a Formosa-style independent republic, isn't it?

 

[Thande]

Cuba is a Formosa-style independent republic, isn't it?

Correct. I knew I was right to mention you among the few forum readers I had space to thank in the introduction to Diverge and Conquer.

 

[Indicus]

"European"... Think again.

There are going to be Chinese, Russian, and Korean colonies in India ITTL?

Suddenly India seems fortunate OTL.

 

[1SaBy]

There are going to be Chinese, Russian, and Korean colonies in India ITTL?

Suddenly India seems fortunate OTL.

And don't forget about the British/Americans, the French, the Belgians and the Meridians. Or at least initially until they are, maybe, ousted by the Chinese, the Russians and the Coreans.

 

[traveller76]

Wow

Wow, all I can say is that update was epic.

 

[rednax7]

Three fantastic updates all in quick succession, all I can say Thande is that I love your work here immensely. Great job.

Since there some allusions about colonialism in India and Africa, here's hoping we can some more of that soon. Maps even? Pretty please?

 

[Analytical Engine]

What does NFL mean in this context, Thande, given that you've used sporting-league accronyms in different ways elsewhere already?

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Correct. I knew I was right to mention you among the few forum readers I had space to thank in the introduction to Diverge and Conquer.

Thanks.

What does NFL mean in this context, Thande, given that you've used sporting-league accronyms in different ways elsewhere already?

I presume NFL stands for Native Friendship League which was introduced in Part #140.

 

[Archangel]

Cuba is a Formosa-style independent republic, isn't it?

Correct. I knew I was right to mention you among the few forum readers I had space to thank in the introduction to Diverge and Conquer.

Forgive me if it has been asked, but is it Finlandised or is a Meridian puppet?

 

[Thande]

Forgive me if it has been asked, but is it Finlandised or is a Meridian puppet?

The former, but it will be covered in more detail later on.

(NFL, as said above, is the Native Friendship League).

Three fantastic updates all in quick succession, all I can say Thande is that I love your work here immensely. Great job.

Since there some allusions about colonialism in India and Africa, here's hoping we can some more of that soon. Maps even? Pretty please?

Thank you. Maps will come when possible, the trouble is (and I've had this trouble before with India and China) is it's hard to bring a whole (sub)continent up to date at once so you can show it all.

 

[Umbric Man]

Cuba being independent, eh?

Makes me wonder if it expels all the Anglos, reject all American (Carolinian) culture once it's independent to focus on native Hispanic ways of life, become chummier with Carolina in spirit via being once part of it even if it's Finlandized under the ENA, or some combination thereof.

And of course, if Hispaniola and the *British West Indies are still fine with being under American rule considering their Carolinian-esque culture and seeing neighboring Cuba independent. Hmm...

Kinda funny *America has restricted itself primarily to the continent and lost out on Cuba like OTL, tho'. The more things change...

 

[joelwilliamson]

At one point, RLPC is misspelt as RPLC.

 

[Makemakean]

Will give a longer review tomorrow, but for now, just wanted to point out that at 68 years, Frederick II has reigned longer than any monarch on the British isles before him!

Had he eked out another four years, he would actually have overtaken Louis XIV and been the longest reigning European monarch in history.

 

[1SaBy]

Cuba being independent, eh?

Makes me wonder if it expels all the Anglos, reject all American (Carolinian) culture once it's independent to focus on native Hispanic ways of life, become chummier with Carolina in spirit via being once part of it even if it's Finlandized under the ENA, or some combination thereof.

I was under the impression that the free French- and Spanish-speakers were forced to leave both Hispaniola and Cuba, making space for the Anglos to move in. And the former slaves (of whom some still might speak Spanish or French) are likely to be impoverished and in no position to oust the Anglos.

Will give a longer review tomorrow, but for now, just wanted to point out that at 68 years, Frederick II has reigned longer than any monarch on the British isles before him!

Had he eked out another four years, he would actually have overtaken Louis XIV and been the longest reigning European monarch in history.

Someone did mention that he may be seen as a Queen Victoria-like figure in this TL.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

I was under the impression that the free French- and Spanish-speakers were forced to leave both Hispaniola and Cuba, making space for the Anglos to move in. And the former slaves (of whom some still might speak Spanish or French) are likely to be impoverished and in no position to oust the Anglos.

Cuba was not racially purged.
In fact, the integration of Cuba in the ENA/Carolina contributed to the Catholic emancipation in the ENA and the Spanish-speaking aristocrats were since the early 19th century (legally) on equal terms with their English-speaking counterparts.
The integration into Carolina was so successful that during the Great American War many, if not most of Cuba's Hispanics remained loyal to the Carolinian secessionists.

 

[Ed Costello]

[REGIONAL CHAUVINISM INTENSIFIES]

That was a really great update - there's far too many hints and micro-divergences in there for me to unpack them all, which is what you want from good AH. I liked the Liverpool segment (because of course I did), especially the hints that the city's growing faster than OTL - Garston wasn't absorbed until the 1930s, and Bootle remains separate even today. Also, the fact that Liverpool's A-Ball teams have the same suffixes as OTL's Manchester teams tickles me inordinately

The situation in India is fascinating - the sense I get from the hints we've seen so far is that TTL's present-day India is the closest thing to OTL's Africa (which raises the question of what TTL's Africa is like).

 

[1SaBy]

Cuba was not racially purged.
In fact, the integration of Cuba in the ENA/Carolina contributed to the Catholic emancipation in the ENA and the Spanish-speaking aristocrats were since the early 19th century (legally) on equal terms with their English-speaking counterparts.
The integration into Carolina was so successful that during the Great American War many, if not most of Cuba's Hispanics remained loyal to the Carolinian secessionists.

Really? I don't even remember anymore. Y U MAKE SO DETAILED TIMELINES, THANDE!?

(which raises the question of what TTL's Africa is like).

Yeah, I got an idea:

 

[B_Munro]

India has milennia of settled civilization and organized large states. Although OTL India was for a long time after independence sub-Saharan Africa poor (or in case of some African countries, poorer) a fragmented India isn't likely to be more than superficially like OTL post-colonial Africa. Not to say that some parts of India won't be a real mess (see Bangladesh and Pakistan today OTL) but I find it unlikely post-colonial India will be a place people will virtual write off the way many people did Africa from the 80s on. The failed or non-functional states, the insane ethnic condundrums, the warlords, the bountiful flowering of god-awful dictatorships, the failures of development: I just don't see India being in quite the same ballpark.

As for Africa: well, given the Three-Cornered eye's views on diversity, I expect any Societist state-building efforts there to be...messy.

 

[Alex Richards]

India has milennia of settled civilization and organized large states. Although OTL India was for a long time after independence sub-Saharan Africa poor (or in case of some African countries, poorer) a fragmented India isn't likely to be more than superficially like OTL post-colonial Africa. Not to say that some parts of India won't be a real mess (see Bangladesh and Pakistan today OTL) but I find it unlikely post-colonial India will be a place people will virtual write off the way many people did Africa from the 80s on. The failed or non-functional states, the insane ethnic condundrums, the warlords, the bountiful flowering of god-awful dictatorships, the failures of development: I just don't see India being in quite the same ballpark.

As for Africa: well, given the Three-Cornered eye's views on diversity, I expect any Societist state-building efforts there to be...messy.

Certainly I can't see it being as bad, but I would say that you only have to look at the issues in the Niger Valley to see how having a long tradition of settled state structures doesn't necessarily mean that you can avoid that sort of post-colonial mess, and arguably having a consistently settled and populous subcontinent rather than a region that has much more in the region of definable natural borders of sparse population means that the potential for messy ethnic conundrums is higher.

I mean, to some extent you could argue that OTL the subcontinent has all of that to some degree- even excluding Afghanistan there's very messy ethno-religious issues (the Pubjab, Bengal, issues with the Tamils, Khalistan etc.), warlordism in the North West Frontier or from the Naxalites, Pakistan functioning as a dictatorship on several occasions and parts of the subcontinent that are decades behind other parts. Include Afghanistan and you can include a definite failed state as well.

Theoretically many smaller countries could exasperate those issues and make them more prominent, especially the public perception of those issues. I still doubt it'll get quite as bad as OTL Africa, but I can see plenty of scope for it to get close if the right triggers go off. The Great Jihad seems like a start on that front actually, mirroring the Fulani Jihads of West Africa and consequently perhaps creating local vacuums which could be filled by clashing groups from different backgrounds, or disrupting neat dialect continuums and introducing isolated but sizable areas of one ethnic group or another.