Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

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Thande

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As for the final chapter, I very much liked the conflicting accounts of Pablo Sanchez last words, as I indeed appreciate very much the censorship, redactions, modifications and outright lies that appear in your history books. I think you're really the only one on this forum who have properly managed to make use of the fact that historians aren't omniscient, neutral objective observers, sometimes giving different interpretations of events. The three differing accounts of Pablo Sanchez' last words were therefore pretty good as the very feel of your timeline of there being people out there actively trying to falsify history.

In particular, I liked this part.



As a Popperian, I like the very special effect this (presumed) piece of pseudepigrapha by Raúl Caraíbas will have on the development of Societism. Whereas both Whiggish historiography and Marxism have traditionally been highly historicist in nature (The march of towards liberal democracy/communism is as inevitable as the fact that the entropy of the Universe will increase!), this little addition changes Societism from being (as Sanchez appears to have been) historicist to actually saying that there's no inherent law of nature dictating that humanity will move towards the Final Society, or rather, that is a special condition that only applies if you don't have "enough people interfering". Instead, it is something that must actively be sought. Very interesting. :)
Thank you very much. I do think it is a neglected area of AH to consider these things.

I don't think there has been an ideology in OTL which goes with the approach "Sanchez"/Caraíbas advocates here in terms of 'there is an ineluctable dialectic, but it can be delayed by human intervention so counter-action is required'. I know some of the Soviet theorists tied themselves in knots about how Lenin was supposedly able to accelerate the revolution in Russia to transform it directly from a feudal to a socialist society without any intervening capitalist step, but still.
 
I don't think there has been an ideology in OTL which goes with the approach "Sanchez"/Caraíbas advocates here in terms of 'there is an ineluctable dialectic, but it can be delayed by human intervention so counter-action is required'. I know some of the Soviet theorists tied themselves in knots about how Lenin was supposedly able to accelerate the revolution in Russia to transform it directly from a feudal to a socialist society without any intervening capitalist step, but still.

I was always a bit miffed that Marx never appears to have started worrying about meta levels. If by some scientific wonder I was gifted a time machine so I could bring Marx hither and take him out for a coffee, the one question I would ask him would be this:

"Did you ever consider the possibility that there indeed is a dialectic that will drive humanity towards the Communist revolution, the proletarian dictatorship, the classless society and all that, however, it only works as long as people don't know about the dialectic? That the moment people become aware of it, then you introduce a self-referential feedback-loop into the system that has chaotic influences that can prevent all of these things? That dialectic consciousness destroys the dialectic? That by virtue of simply writing the Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital and all that, you have now actually prevented the Marxist society from ever coming to pass?"
 

Thande

Donor
I was always a bit miffed that Marx never appears to have started worrying about meta levels. If by some scientific wonder I was gifted a time machine so I could bring Marx hither and take him out for a coffee, the one question I would ask him would be this:

"Did you ever consider the possibility that there indeed is a dialectic that will drive humanity towards the Communist revolution, the proletarian dictatorship, the classless society and all that, however, it only works as long as people don't know about the dialectic? That the moment people become aware of it, then you introduce a self-referential feedback-loop into the system that has chaotic influences that can prevent all of these things? That dialectic consciousness destroys the dialectic? That by virtue of simply writing the Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital and all that, you have now actually prevented the Marxist society from ever coming to pass?"
Indeed. That would make an interesting philosophical short story, in fact. "The Observer Effect", you could call it.
 
Oh dear. Jutland will be Germanized, it seems.

I hope not! Norden should invade former East Prussia and trade it with Germany for Jutland. :D

It occurs to me that I can't remember any reference to Diversitarian Germany....

They may end up being neutral. I remember a quote from 1990's by what seemed to be a German nobleman, judging by his name. "Don't these troubles always start in South America?" or something like that, which to me suggests that Germany is not on the Societist side.
 

Thande

Donor
Continuing to update the laconic TL on the wiki, a painstaking process. Into the 160s now.

I felt like I was missing references the entire time I was reading Sanchez' last words.
The only substantial references in there are 'his own family' (a running gag about Lloyd George from the British politics threads) and 'the sun is God', which were the OTL last words of the artist JMW Turner. The rest is mostly extracted from a lunatic on a bus for that authentic flavour.

The next update is up for Finding Your Face. Enjoy!

Yes, everyone go and read it!
 
I wish to read the latest posts terribly, but don't want to risk reading the latest and missing some middling ones. Do you have a new thread for compiling this in? I was one that wasn't update for a few years and imagine you may have another one. That, or someone may have made a PDF or posted something linking to every post. Because as interesting and enlightening some of the chat posts are, they do break the momentum of reading this.
 

Thande

Donor
I wish to read the latest posts terribly, but don't want to risk reading the latest and missing some middling ones. Do you have a new thread for compiling this in? I was one that wasn't update for a few years and imagine you may have another one. That, or someone may have made a PDF or posted something linking to every post. Because as interesting and enlightening some of the chat posts are, they do break the momentum of reading this.

I intend to post in the Finished TLs forum after I've gone through volume IV while updating the laconic TL. If you go to this page on the wiki, Petike has made a series of direct links to the individual chapters on this thread so you can cut out the interstitial chat. He's only gone up to part 194 but I will add the rest now. EDIT: Done.
 

Thande

Donor
Alright. Just one last question. Have you went back to make any changes of note to earlier chapters, or did you do all that in the Finished Timelines thread?

I still need to make changes even over and above the Finished Timelines version :p I try to edit it in the main thread as well now, helped by Ian extending the edit limit over what it used to be.
 
Indeed. That would make an interesting philosophical short story, in fact. "The Observer Effect", you could call it.

I'm now imagining a version of It's A Wonderful Life of Marx seeing what would have happened had he never lived/exposed the class dialectic...
 
I'm now imagining a version of It's A Wonderful Life of Marx seeing what would have happened had he never lived/exposed the class dialectic...

But wait, going by the above idea, wouldn't that end with Marx deciding it really is better of if he'd never been born?

Could be quite depressing really.
 
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