Owain said all I can. Honestly, I feel Owens-Allen won't take being despised of lightly and will escape to Carolina. Let him if he does so - those two deserve each other.
Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!
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Alex Richards
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I really have no idea which way this is going. Quite possibly a great stand outside the gates of Fredericksburg? I strongly suspect that any concerns of the Velvet Coup will be drowned out by Carolina invading Virginia again, but where else? Mayhaps the border will cut across Virginia and Carolina?
Well, if the Virginians were feeling ambivalent about Carolina they certainly won't once an army starts looting its way north to Fredericksburg. I expect this will dismiss any ill-feelings from the Velvet Coup rather rapidly in favor of new, more pressing ill-feelings toward the threat from the South.
Also gotta wonder what the Meridians will think of this. The mission was to support Carolina - not go traipsing around the rest of the ENA on a mission of revenge.
Also gotta wonder what the Meridians will think of this. The mission was to support Carolina - not go traipsing around the rest of the ENA on a mission of revenge.
In the words of Warmaster Horus "LET THE GALAXY BURN ! "
Sorry
. Couldn't resist .I have this sinking feeling Virginia is going to pay the bill for all the atrocities Carolina has endured , and that it won't be pretty . I suppose this is the defining moment when the Carolinans are really going to be looked as full traitors by the North , with Rutledge playing the role of OTL Sherman .
Did Sanchez really compare Clarke and the Imperialists to a puppy ?
Thande
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He is referring to the ordinary people who voted in parties like the Supremacists--saying that he used to think that if kings were overthrown and ordinary people ruled then there would be peace, but since the Popular Wars brought the rise of democracy and restrained the old ruling classes but war has continued, he now regards ordinary people as being just as bloodthirsty as the ruling classes.
Hey all! This is my first reply to LTTW, although I've been following this TL for a couple years now (LTTW is the TL that got me to sign up for AH.com).
I'm actually less confused than ever. Clearly, he's no longer welcome in Imperial-controlled Virginia, but there's a strong suggestion that the Meridians and Carolinans will soon be advancing into Viriginia, and my guess is that it will be in Meridian/Carolinan-occupied Virgina that Owens-Allan will resurface. I'm guessing that there will be enough Virginians dissatisfied with the "Velvet Coup" that he will have some popular support, and he will be declared to be the "legitimate governor of Virginia" by the Meridians and Carolinans in order to legitimize their occuptation.
To be honest, I have no clue where the battle lines will be by war's end. The reference to the "First Seige of Ultima" hints that there will be a second, which would imply that at least most of Viriginia will remain in Imperial hands. My wild guess is that the Meridian navy will maitain superiority at sea and the Carolinans will advnace into coastal Virginia, while the Imperials superiority on land will allow them to advance into Western Carolina and beseige Ultima from the West.
By, my main point was that I'm pretty confident at this point that Owens-Allan will be made "King" of whatever part of Virginia and Carolina remains controlled by the independent Meridian-backed Carolinan governement. My guess is that it will be the Meridians who will offer him the crown. The Meridians are very much opposed to the Burdenist ideology of the Carolinan Whig government, and they will likely try to do their best to replace that government with a leader who is less overtly pro-slavery. From my reading, Owens-Allans policies were more pro-independence than pro-slavery, and thus he could be seen as one of the few political leaders who is capable of being accepted by both the Carolinan/Virginian people and the anti-slavery Meridians. With this idea in mind I interpret the quote:
as implying that Owens-Allan is offered the crown of whatever part of the ENA becomes independent at war's end as a part of the peace negotiations. He is "reduced to a mere bargaining chip" in that he is only chosen as King as a compromise between Carolinan Whigs and the Meridians who are the real power behind Carolinan indpendence.
I'm actually less confused than ever. Clearly, he's no longer welcome in Imperial-controlled Virginia, but there's a strong suggestion that the Meridians and Carolinans will soon be advancing into Viriginia, and my guess is that it will be in Meridian/Carolinan-occupied Virgina that Owens-Allan will resurface. I'm guessing that there will be enough Virginians dissatisfied with the "Velvet Coup" that he will have some popular support, and he will be declared to be the "legitimate governor of Virginia" by the Meridians and Carolinans in order to legitimize their occuptation.
To be honest, I have no clue where the battle lines will be by war's end. The reference to the "First Seige of Ultima" hints that there will be a second, which would imply that at least most of Viriginia will remain in Imperial hands. My wild guess is that the Meridian navy will maitain superiority at sea and the Carolinans will advnace into coastal Virginia, while the Imperials superiority on land will allow them to advance into Western Carolina and beseige Ultima from the West.
By, my main point was that I'm pretty confident at this point that Owens-Allan will be made "King" of whatever part of Virginia and Carolina remains controlled by the independent Meridian-backed Carolinan governement. My guess is that it will be the Meridians who will offer him the crown. The Meridians are very much opposed to the Burdenist ideology of the Carolinan Whig government, and they will likely try to do their best to replace that government with a leader who is less overtly pro-slavery. From my reading, Owens-Allans policies were more pro-independence than pro-slavery, and thus he could be seen as one of the few political leaders who is capable of being accepted by both the Carolinan/Virginian people and the anti-slavery Meridians. With this idea in mind I interpret the quote:
as implying that Owens-Allan is offered the crown of whatever part of the ENA becomes independent at war's end as a part of the peace negotiations. He is "reduced to a mere bargaining chip" in that he is only chosen as King as a compromise between Carolinan Whigs and the Meridians who are the real power behind Carolinan indpendence.
Sorry, Thande, you wouldn't mind giving us the dates for when the results were finally declared (how long it took to count and recount the votes and all), at what date the new elections should have been held, and at what date the Velvet Coup occurred? Sorry, I'm finding it a bit difficult keeping track of the chronology of everything...
Oh dear, it's spring of 1851, Owens-Allen, after having completely lost any mandate he ever had to govern Virginia, has disappeared, and is first to reappear first several months later, and all this chronological mathematics must work out in some way that in 1853 he has become king Henry II Frederick of... somewhere.
This is very good, you know. It's quite a nail biter...!
♫ Let it burn! Let it burn! Can't hold it back anymore! ♫
So Chamberlain has fallen for that misconception of misconceptions? The hour is, as you certainly know, darkest at midnight, just at midpoint between sunrise and sunset when the sun is facing the completely opposite part of the planet. The hour is coldest before the dawn.
...also, wait, wait, what?! What in the name of-...?! No! The Empire cannot suddenly win this war, not when it has been implied that-...?! But then what of Owens-Allen-...?! The films with the Freudian slips and the-...?!
That the fuck, dude?
Technically, I dont BELIEVE that that school of economics has to be named after Yerba Buena at all. There are lots of cities named San Franscisco, including 20+ in otl Mexico, and technically the capital of Ecuador (apparently legally sf de quito...).
Since e.g. the Pugwash movement was named after a small Nova Scotia town, and the 'Camp David Accords' are named after the President's retreat, it COULD be the name of some small town where the founders of that theory met for a retreat. Heck, it could be the name of a ranch or estate.
I'm quite convinced that what Thande initially had in mind was for it to be the town we all think of when we hear San Francisco, and that in future revisions he would have changed it to Cometa School, but now that you've written this, it wouldn't surprised me if the next post by Thande will be "That. Exactly that. That's the reason why it's called the San Francisco school. And WHOOSH! that's canonical now. See my power!!!"
Thande
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I should have said that was the date of the results being announced - been doing so much recent election coverage in the map forum that I was forgetting this was the nineteenth century when it took weeks to vote and count...Sorry, Thande, you wouldn't mind giving us the dates for when the results were finally declared (how long it took to count and recount the votes and all), at what date the new elections should have been held, and at what date the Velvet Coup occurred? Sorry, I'm finding it a bit difficult keeping track of the chronology of everything...
Thanks.Oh dear, it's spring of 1851, Owens-Allen, after having completely lost any mandate he ever had to govern Virginia, has disappeared, and is first to reappear first several months later, and all this chronological mathematics must work out in some way that in 1853 he has become king Henry II Frederick of... somewhere.
This is very good, you know. It's quite a nail biter...!
Nonetheless, it is an aphorism that dates back to at least the seventeenth century, and I don't see anyone correcting the Mamas and the Papas getting a moderately successful hit out of it... (which is actually where I first came across the phrase)
Okay. Cheers.
It took me a while before I learned that that was a commonly known aphorism, not just in English, but also in Swedish, because I had somehow managed to escape hearing it ever before I saw The Dark Knight, and this particular part of it. I remember sitting there thinking "What the-...?! Chris Nolan is an idiot! It's coldest before dawn! This is unpardonable coming from an alumnus of University College London!"
(The pertinent observer will note that The Dark Knight premiered in July 2008, and I started at UCL in September 2009, but... embarrassingly enough, I first saw the movie more than a year later than everyone else (I was busy!).)
It was first later that I learned that, as you say, it is a common saying, that's apparently quite widespread across many Western countries. But complaining about it being technically incorrect as far as it pertains to atmospheric refraction and terrestrial rotation just so happens to be a something I've made into a trade mark complaint of mine.
So, no offense.
As far as The Dark Knight is concerned, considering who is saying it, what later on happens to him, and how Gotham at the end of the movie yet is a far way from the metaphorical dawn, I guess you could sort of interpret it being stated along with its factual incorrectness as being a subtle foreshadowing of what is to come.
Somehow, I cannot help but doubt that that is what Nolan intended, though.
My first thought was that Carolina is going to lose all of its provinces on the mainland and be reduced to a rump holding Cuba and the former American Caribbean. On the other hand, it has also been stated that Ultima is the Carolinian capital after 1853, so perhaps the actual result is that Carolina loses both North and South province (as suspected) and becomes a de facto puppet of the UPSA. That would certainly explain the bitterness...
teg
OTOH, by the end of the war the Carolinan government will have spent several years in Ultima and will certainly have become somewhat used to operating from there. If at the end of the war Charleston is too badly damaged and is deemed too vulnerable (remember what nearly happened in part 181), they might simply not wish to return any longer.
Well that wasn't quite the ending I expected for Virginia. This also has me thinking there might be a King Henry sitting on the throne of a rump Carolina. With Virginia back in the fold it will be vastly easier for the ENA to attack, but still given the cycloguns and Carolina's allies, this will blunt this new advantage considerably. And I could see Owen-Allens being chosen as a king for his efforts of neutrality as governor of Virginia and possibly some actions when he resurfaces.
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