Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

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"A tradition was established and the town was noted for its peculiar use of horsemeat in cookery right up until the 1940s, when the tradition was officially eradicated by the Cultural Homogenisation Authority..."

That's another thing about this TL I like. Little hints at the creepyness of this world's "modern times." :D

I was going to say that too.
 

Thande

Donor
"Merodachbaladan Smith was not the person you would expect to become one of the great inventors of all human history. Smith had been born in New Doncaster in Carolina[1] to a family of Bavarian immigrants (originally named Schmidt). However, during the Neo-Iconoclast Uprisings of 1889, his family (being members of the Reformed Jansenist Church of Carolina) had been targeted by the mob, as non-Protestant Christians were #########################################[2]. Seeing his childhood home burnt to the ground and his parents lynched made a deep impression on the young Merodachbaladan. Why was it, he asked himself, that people would divide themselves over such silly differences to produce chaos, when by working in unison they could be so much more productive? The fire, yes, the fire, could be destructive, but could fire also not be creative? Indeed, was not the use of fire which had heralded the beginning of human civilization?

Smith fortunately did manage to escape the riots, and eventually resettled with an uncle in La Cometa in the Republic of California. He was to attend to the Spanish-speaking Academy of Santiago de Zebedeo at a time when the writings of Pablo Sanchez were becoming increasingly popular among its students (see the Autumn of Upheaval of 1899), but there is little to suggest that Smith paid any interest in politics at the time. Instead, what Smith focused on was physics and the problems that the Copernican Atomic Model[4] at the time was facing.

[...]

Smith finally had his Eureka moment in 1911 when he endured a violent rainstorm. He realized that while from afar it looked like a continuous flow, if you looked closely, you saw that the water came in droplets. This allowed him to formulate what he called "discretized mechanics", but what would, in tribute to the rainfall that inspired it, be known as Droplet Mechanics[5].

[...]

The final triumph (or dismay) of Smith came in 1923, when the Societist Directorship of California could unveil the world's first Dionysium[6] bomb.

[1] Approximately at OTL Jackson, Mississippi. Originally intended to be a temporary regional capital, it had been named "New Doncaster" after the temporary capital of Great Britain during the Jacobin War while the official new capital of Northsburgh was being constructed (compare with OTL Canberra and Washington, D.C.). However, the Great American War put those constructions to a halt and at the end of the conflict, the lack of funds put a premature and abrupt halt to those construction plans, and so New Doncaster was to become the permanent regional capital.
[2] Here much have been blanked out, which considering that this book was donated to the New Library of Manchester from the remains of the library of Societist League of England after that association was banned in 1951, may indicate that it contains some information stressing the cataclysmic and violent effects of differences in opinion, certainly when pertaining to religion, which would give strength to the Societist interpretation of history. The English government of Joe Haroldson in power at the time was (in)famous for his use of heavy-handed Russian censorship laws, and thus, it is likely the the librarians deliberately would blank out offending passages. I speculate that the original line reads "non-Protestant Christians were blamed for the Carolinians' loss in the War of[3]
[3] Here I have to put an end to Dr. Tindale's lengthy footnote to preserve data storage space for the maps of ITTL modern England.
[4] In OTL we would say the planetary model, i.e. that there's a nucleus (sun) at the center and that the electrons (like planets) orbits it.
[5] We would say Quantum Mechanics, as light comes in small packets of "quanta".
[6] In OTL, Uranium takes it name from the eight planet, Uranus, with Neptunium and Plutonium following it in the periodic table. ITTL, Uranus was instead named Dionysus, hence Dionysium rather than Uranium."

You either win everything or I'm going to kill you :p

I will take the third option Wedge Antilles suggests in "Wraith Squadron" and hammer a medal directly into your skull...

Though, actually, it will be interesting to compare this to what actually happens when atomic weapons come about in TTL (I have already entered some of the in-TTL jargon on the Alternate Terminology page on the wiki, for the spoiler hounds...) I'm guessing you weren't aware as I had already come up with LTTW terms for things like quantum mechanics, though I like your ones as well! :D
 
You either win everything or I'm going to kill you :p

I will take the third option Wedge Antilles suggests in "Wraith Squadron" and hammer a medal directly into your skull...

I actually had to google that to discover that that was even a Star Wars reference. You win in nerdy obscurity.

Though, actually, it will be interesting to compare this to what actually happens when atomic weapons come about in TTL (I have already entered some of the in-TTL jargon on the Alternate Terminology page on the wiki, for the spoiler hounds...) I'm guessing you weren't aware as I had already come up with LTTW terms for things like quantum mechanics, though I like your ones as well! :D

I haven't actually seen that, as you correctly noted. I have dug through the old map threads and stuff like that to get spoilers, but the idea that you would be so careless as to actually write it directly into the wiki... It never would have appeared to me! :p

Must admit that I actually didn't come up with the droplet analogy myself. Was a documentary I saw where they have some actor playing Max Planck who is working on the ultraviolet catastrophe one very rainy evening and he goes to the window and looks at the rain. The analogy that light being in quanta just as water is in drops struck me as positively genius, and I searched in vain to see if the implication that Planck got the idea from rain drops were actually true, but I could find nothing that would support it. In any case, the person who came up with that analogy certainly deserves a medal (preferably not hammered into his/her head) for useful clarification (to the layperson at least) of what quantum mechanics is. It's a far better thing to mention if you want to explain quantum mechanics to someone than to start talking about cats in boxes.

Also, where are my manners? Excellent update as usual! :)

One of the things I really love about this timeline among the pre-1900 ones is that it takes immense attention to describing not just alternate historical characters and the development of political ideas or movements, but that much focus is actually placed on describing in remarkable detail the (re-)construction of science, mechanics and inventions, whereas most authors completely disregard this altogether and just assumes that things will evolve "more or less the same as in OTL". Even the famous Jared of Decades of Darkness would seldom devote more than half a page to describing the development of a technological innovation. Your approach and acknowledgement is highly appreciated.
 
Well then. The "Cultural Homogenisation Authority" doesn't sound ominous at all in the slightest.

Things are starting to become more clear as to what the 20th century will look like but I'm still maddeningly scratching my head to decipher your vague clues :p

Absolutely loving this timeline in almost every aspect. One problem I see crop up with so many TLs is that they start far in the past, get to the modern era and then they just seem to lose some of their tangibility; they just end up rehashing or recycling OTL politics or science in some respect with a different twist, or they try and branch to different ideas but neglect to give them a firm bedrock of description and realism to fill in the gaps that form in my understanding of them. TTL manages to create a quite alien world from our own but it feels incredibly real and grounded, which is why it remains my favorite TL on this site.
 
I should mention I think the invention of the term "ironsharks" for military submarines is pretty good. The fact is, as of this date OTL anyway, submersible craft do pretty much break down into the vast majority being warships of a peculiar kind, with a smattering of very different sorts of craft for purely scientific purposes (and the occasional minor utilitarian purpose, often fulfilled by a craft basically designed for scientific exploration)--TTL's "submersibles." The warships are aptly enough described by "ironsharks," whether they be propelled by hand-cranks, diesel-electrics, fuel cells or nuclear power plants. They all have the same purpose--to roam the seas invisibly, undetected, and strike from stealth by surprise--this is as true of "boomer" ICBM carriers as of attack or patrol subs. (I guess ITTL the short name of such warships, instead of OTL "sub," would be "shark;" both are just one syllable). To call them sharks is to highlight their purpose and function, and sharply distinguish them from the submersibles which have a very different function.

So that name is well-done indeed.
 

Thande

Donor
I actually had to google that to discover that that was even a Star Wars reference. You win in nerdy obscurity.
I would definitely recommend the Wraith Squadron books by Aaron Allston (recently sadly deceased before his time) even to people who have no interest in Star Wars, just because they are well written and absolutely hilarious. It's so rare to see humour done well in military fiction or science fiction (and these are kind of both together).

Makemakean said:
One of the things I really love about this timeline among the pre-1900 ones is that it takes immense attention to describing not just alternate historical characters and the development of political ideas or movements, but that much focus is actually placed on describing in remarkable detail the (re-)construction of science, mechanics and inventions, whereas most authors completely disregard this altogether and just assumes that things will evolve "more or less the same as in OTL". Even the famous Jared of Decades of Darkness would seldom devote more than half a page to describing the development of a technological innovation. Your approach and acknowledgement is highly appreciated.

Absolutely loving this timeline in almost every aspect. One problem I see crop up with so many TLs is that they start far in the past, get to the modern era and then they just seem to lose some of their tangibility; they just end up rehashing or recycling OTL politics or science in some respect with a different twist, or they try and branch to different ideas but neglect to give them a firm bedrock of description and realism to fill in the gaps that form in my understanding of them. TTL manages to create a quite alien world from our own but it feels incredibly real and grounded, which is why it remains my favorite TL on this site.
Thanks for the praise everyone, I appreciate it!

I should mention I think the invention of the term "ironsharks" for military submarines is pretty good. The fact is, as of this date OTL anyway, submersible craft do pretty much break down into the vast majority being warships of a peculiar kind, with a smattering of very different sorts of craft for purely scientific purposes (and the occasional minor utilitarian purpose, often fulfilled by a craft basically designed for scientific exploration)--TTL's "submersibles." The warships are aptly enough described by "ironsharks," whether they be propelled by hand-cranks, diesel-electrics, fuel cells or nuclear power plants. They all have the same purpose--to roam the seas invisibly, undetected, and strike from stealth by surprise--this is as true of "boomer" ICBM carriers as of attack or patrol subs. (I guess ITTL the short name of such warships, instead of OTL "sub," would be "shark;" both are just one syllable). To call them sharks is to highlight their purpose and function, and sharply distinguish them from the submersibles which have a very different function.

So that name is well-done indeed.
This was my inspiration, by the way (albeit not quite the same name) - the Dandy adventure comic strip Iron Fish.

ironfish.jpg
 
With reference to such notions as a "Cultural Homogenisation Authority" by the 1940s, I cannot help but wonder what an observer from Look to the West would think of our timeline were they ever given the opportunity (which may or may not be part of the conclusion to the meta-story). Seeing both Societists and Diversitarians have a view of Culture and the State such that they believe very strongly in its regulatory powers, albeit for very different purposes - the Societists wish the State to enforce a specific one-sided, uniform culture on everyone, while the Diversitarians wish to see it promote heterogeneity to the point of it becoming a paradox (doesn't Diversitarianism taken to its natural conclusion imply that there must be at least a small segment of the population who are doctrinaire Societists so as to achieve the greatest possible diversity?) - they would likely be dismayed by having a look at our world, which would appear unbelievable laissez-faire, neoliberal, if not outright anarcho-capitalistic to them.

Which brings me to the question, do you have plans on including any "cultural anarchists" in this timeline, who, in direct contrast to both the Societists and Diversitarians believe that the State should not seek to meddle in cultural business at all, neither to promote homogeneity or heterogeneity?
 

Thande

Donor
With reference to such notions as a "Cultural Homogenisation Authority" by the 1940s, I cannot help but wonder what an observer from Look to the West would think of our timeline were they ever given the opportunity (which may or may not be part of the conclusion to the meta-story). Seeing both Societists and Diversitarians have a view of Culture and the State such that they believe very strongly in its regulatory powers, albeit for very different purposes - the Societists wish the State to enforce a specific one-sided, uniform culture on everyone, while the Diversitarians wish to see it promote heterogeneity to the point of it becoming a paradox (doesn't Diversitarianism taken to its natural conclusion imply that there must be at least a small segment of the population who are doctrinaire Societists so as to achieve the greatest possible diversity?) - they would likely be dismayed by having a look at our world, which would appear unbelievable laissez-faire, neoliberal, if not outright anarcho-capitalistic to them.

Which brings me to the question, do you have plans on including any "cultural anarchists" in this timeline, who, in direct contrast to both the Societists and Diversitarians believe that the State should not seek to meddle in cultural business at all, neither to promote homogeneity or heterogeneity?

I can't really talk about that without giving away spoilers, but it is something that will come up.
 
And just think — the fact that Societism will have some success (at least in the UPSA, Carolina and some other places) means that at some point in the future, things are going to happen in the Americas that make it look like a good idea.
 
And just think — the fact that Societism will have some success (at least in the UPSA, Carolina and some other places) means that at some point in the future, things are going to happen in the Americas that make it look like a good idea.

Something pretty bad is going to happen in South America. UPSA looks like the epicenter, but I am not entirely convinced of it. The "Zonal Reys" sound a lot like New Spain's multi-monarch system with the serial numbers filed off. Much like how Soviet communism was to a large degree Tsarism in red paint, I can't help but wonder how much of the old way of doing things is going to persist despite official statements that We're Nothing Like That Anymore.

Given that Societism is implied to be against slavery (at least, slavery to something other than Societism), I am wondering if Carolina is going to end up incorporated into this bloc through a slave revolt. Carolina isn't going to give it up voluntarily, they fought their war of independence over the issue and it will be too entrenched in their national identity and probably their constitution. There will be no Great Migration TTL, so the country will be majority black soon if it isn't already. It's going to increasingly resemble an early 20th century version of South Africa in the eyes of the rest of the world, a regressive throwback with a brutal and exploitative system to keep down the majority of the population. The Combine gives the slaves a deal: we'll help you rise up in revolt and get your freedom, and in return all you have to do is give up is your national identity, which you don't like much anyway. Seems like a fair enough trade, at least until they start setting up the reeducation camps. There will probably be a Carolinan white refugee lobby in the ENA howling impotently for revenge against whatever Castro-figure ends up directing the revolution.
 
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Given that Societism is implied to be against slavery (at least, slavery to something other than Societism), I am wondering if Carolina is going to end up incorporated into this bloc through a slave revolt.

I don't think it's necessary that slavery will not exist in the Societist Combine. It may well exist, albeit perhaps it won't be termed slavery. After all, Sanchez is not against classes, believing as he does that there are certain people best suited in a particular vocation, and that different classes or categories, like different workmen in a workshop with different tasks ought to operate in harmony.

It may well be the case that the (undemocratic) Combine may figure that a certain segment of the population ought to work on the field under condition very similar to indentured servants or slaves, and so we get slavery-in-everything-but-name.
 
I don't think it's necessary that slavery will not exist in the Societist Combine. It may well exist, albeit perhaps it won't be termed slavery. After all, Sanchez is not against classes, believing as he does that there are certain people best suited in a particular vocation, and that different classes or categories, like different workmen in a workshop with different tasks ought to operate in harmony.

It may well be the case that the (undemocratic) Combine may figure that a certain segment of the population ought to work on the field under condition very similar to indentured servants or slaves, and so we get slavery-in-everything-but-name.

That's why I put in the bit about "slavery to societism". :p The Russian ex-serfs were, to a large degree, re-serfed under collectivization... And of course the historic South gives plenty of examples of how you can set up something like slavery under a new name. I am sure the Harmonious Order of Field Laborers or whatever is not going to get the same TLC the ruling classes will get.

Their propaganda requires them to at least pay lip service to the idea of valuing people equally though so I don't see how the Carolina elites would go along with it. Racial distinctions are just an illusionary division that prevents humanity from uniting into the perfect Society, after all. The South is nothing without its racial pride in the eyes of the people who run it. They would rather burn their country down than give up their position. And maybe they will, in the end...
 
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Thande

Donor
I enjoy seeing discussion like that. It does sometimes give me ideas. (One reason why I don't confirm or deny speculation is not just to avoid spoilers but also because I have a habit of changing my mind as I write, so something I confirmed might not end up appearing in the TL and vice versa :p )
 
The Diversitarians are probably going to include some really ugly racists. Are black people equal to white people, or are they a genetically inferior form of subhuman? A Heritage Point of Controversy! Interracial marriage? That sounds like Societist talk. What are you, some kind of black-flag waving egalitarian?

The Diversitarians' schtick seems to be preserving the world's existing cultures, but by refusing to let them mix they can't allow them to influence each other and evolve into anything new. Seems like they'd like to freeze the world in amber just in a different way from the Societists.
 
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Their propaganda requires them to at least pay lip service to the idea of valuing people equally though so I don't see how the Carolina elites would go along with it. Racial distinctions are just an illusionary division that prevents humanity from uniting into the perfect Society, after all. The South is nothing without its racial pride in the eyes of the people who run it. They would rather burn their country down than give up their position. And maybe they will, in the end...

Well, the Southern whites were perfectly okay with the notion of separate but equal in OTL, so I don't see why they wouldn't be okay with such a rhetoric ITTL. And after all, the white population in South Africa during Apartheid, at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, would probably have been die-hard defenders of the notion that despite institutionalized racism, they were most certainly still a liberal democracy. And remember, the Old South didn't strictly speaking, discriminate against black. They just discriminated against people whose grandfathers' had not had the vote, who were not landowners, who did not have an education, etc. That those people in general happened to be blacks, why, that was just a coincident!

Plus, you can still justify different treatments of different races as being necessary to bring about the Perfect Society. In order to mend whites and blacks into equals, you have to apply different means due to them coming from different cultures and backgrounds. The modifications, the rehabilitation that the white man needs that he may fit into the machinery of the equal vision of Sanchez may differ quite remarkably from the modifications and rehabilitation that the back man requires.

And you can always have the Societists argue that the Carolinians were right, but for the wrong reason. The blacks should be slaves and all, but not because of the color of their skin, but simply because people of that race in general are best fit for toiling on the fields, while white people are in general best fit for administering the government and industry. In theory, it is perfectly possible for a black person to be in government, but oh, my dear, it would appear that we just haven't been able to find one yet, and indeed why should the black man want to be in government? Is not working on the field just as dignified a profession as working in government?
 
Plus, we don't know how much of a say the Carolinians will have in their own affairs. From the hints of how much economic power and prestige the (at least for now so named) Meridians will have in the Caribbean, it may well be so that Carolina may become a virtual colony of the Societist Combine, with appointed governors, or at least government inspectors or whatever. It is after all implied the Societist Combine is not overly fond of democracy, and, well, doesn't local government tend to promote distinctiveness, and differences? Doesn't Societism by definition require strong centralized government to keep things in check and homogenous? The Politburo of the Societist Party down in Buenos Aires may plainly not give a shit about what the old order counter-revolutionaries up in Carolina thinks, and if they insist on making too much noise, why, let's send in the military to enforce the New World Order!

And if that isn't enough, let's put up re-education camps and correctional facilities across Carolina, political commissars in every workplace to make sure that there isn't deviant thinking among the plebs! You don't even need a secret police, you can simply introduce a rewards-based policy in which neighbors spy on neighbors to make sure that nobody engages in counter-revolutionary behavior or activities.
 
Well, the Southern whites were perfectly okay with the notion of separate but equal in OTL, so I don't see why they wouldn't be okay with such a rhetoric ITTL.

So OK we had to fight a war just to get them to pay lip service to it? TTL they will have won that war, it will be the deadest of dead letters. And "Seperate" is mankind's original sin in the eyes of the Societists.


And after all, the white population in South Africa during Apartheid, at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, would probably have been die-hard defenders of the notion that despite institutionalized racism, they were most certainly still a liberal democracy.

The rest of the world didn't feel that way and started putting pressure on them, which the the early 20th century world TTL may start doing. The CSA made slavery basically unrevokable part of its consitution OTL and TTL Carolina has probably already done the same. By, say, 1920 or so the Peculiar Institution is going to look a lot more peculiar around the world.

And remember, the Old South didn't strictly speaking, discriminate against black. They just discriminated against people whose grandfathers' had not had the vote, who were not landowners, who did not have an education, etc. That those people in general happened to be blacks, why, that was just a coincident!

A lot of these type of things may end up coming into play. But many of them might end up being directed at whites as well. Culture begins in the home, and families that are Culturally Questionable will be subjected to extra reeducation, especially those that participated in counterrevolutionnary activities. What, that's most of the white people? Why, what a coincidence.

Plus, you can still justify different treatments of different races as being necessary to bring about the Perfect Society. In order to mend whites and blacks into equals, you have to apply different means due to them coming from different cultures and backgrounds. The modifications, the rehabilitation that the white man needs that he may fit into the machinery of the equal vision of Sanchez may differ quite remarkably from the modifications and rehabilitation that the back man requires.

And you can always have the Societists argue that the Carolinians were right, but for the wrong reason. The blacks should be slaves and all, but not because of the color of their skin, but simply because people of that race in general are best fit for toiling on the fields, while white people are in general best fit for administering the government and industry. In theory, it is perfectly possible for a black person to be in government, but oh, my dear, it would appear that we just haven't been able to find one yet, and indeed why should the black man want to be in government? Is not working on the field just as dignified a profession as working in government?

IDK. It seems hard to get there from Sanchez's views on race; the whites are the ones that seem to need the most reeducating as far as racial distinctions are concerned, because they caused the problem. It doesn't sound much like Cultural Homogeneity either. They're probably going to have to at least have a few tokens in the leadership at a minimum. And if the black Carolinans have risen in revolt, they'd be providing a lot of their own leaders, which would have to be incorporated into the power structure in some way for realpolitik reasons.
 
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