Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

[OwenM]

The MCP thing makes absolute sense when you include the population stipulation.

For Confederation-level, how badly would it skew things for them to be included within their home 'seat' within the Confederation (a sort of "Go West But Still Have A Say" thing). Early postal voting...

I don't think the postal system would be good enough in those days.
Though they might be able to return to vote, I believe in Ireland and Italy and some other places people usually vote in their home town even if they've moved elsewhere.
EDIT: Also, based on the province discussion, I looked up the actual update, and it seems they fixed the provinces, but were supposed to create new boroughs if the voters grew enough in number to warrant an extra seat. Has this actually been followed fully in practice?

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Seems to me that the aftermath of the GAW is the ideal opportunity for those western proto-provinces to be formally admitted, especially if they play a somewhat pivotal role in the war. As long as they remain sparsely populated outside of the boroughs, the scenario you present makes sense.

That would makes sense to me too.

 

[Widukind]

It wouldn't be very strange for such a situation to fester for 30-odd years. It would cause a lot of frustration, of course, but post-war reforms are the perfect opportunity to deal with all of it.

So...

Seems to me that the aftermath of the GAW is the ideal opportunity for those western proto-provinces to be formally admitted, especially if they play a somewhat pivotal role in the war. As long as they remain sparsely populated outside of the boroughs, the scenario you present makes sense.

...very much this.

 

[Thande]

EDIT: Also, based on the province discussion, I looked up the actual update, and it seems they fixed the provinces, but were supposed to create new boroughs if the voters grew enough in number to warrant an extra seat. Has this actually been followed fully in practice?

More or less, although as usual it was one big tranche of new seats followed by some lukewarm follow-ups, I think they've only enfranchised something like three more boroughs since then IIRC.

 

[Agatho]

More or less, although as usual it was one big tranche of new seats followed by some lukewarm follow-ups, I think they've only enfranchised something like three more boroughs since then IIRC.

It seems my question got buried, so if you don't mind I was hoping you could tell me, what happened to the hispanophone population of Hispaniola?

 

[Thande]

It seems my question got buried, so if you don't mind I was hoping you could tell me, what happened to the hispanophone population of Hispaniola?

Haven't really considered it that much: they would have been assimilated (or rather co-opted) by the Carolinians in the same way as their counterparts in Cuba, but I should think they were less significant from the start due to the losses inflicted by the Haitian rebellion at the turn of the nineteenth century and subsequent emigration to the UPSA by those fearful of it happening again (and with the money to do so).

 

[Agatho]

Haven't really considered it that much: they would have been assimilated (or rather co-opted) by the Carolinians in the same way as their counterparts in Cuba, but I should think they were less significant from the start due to the losses inflicted by the Haitian rebellion at the turn of the nineteenth century and subsequent emigration to the UPSA by those fearful of it happening again (and with the money to do so).

Perhaps, but from what I understand, there should have been a significant population of slaves and freedmen that were mostly Spanish speakers as well. You seem to mostly be speaking about the local elites, since most of the ancestors of today's Dominicans wouldn't have been able to either be co-opted or to flee the country. Unfortunately I don't have the population figures handy, but it seems that Hispaniola would be fairly diverse, and any slave rebellion or occupation in which they were freed would be far more complex than it is portrayed in the TL

EDIT: Perhaps a future place for Societism to thrive? Depending on what other countries in North America are Diversitarian, it could even be an ATL equivalent of Cuba in OTL.

 

[Beedok]

So, the recent updates said that New Orleans fell to the French, and that the government retreated to Baton Rouge. Looking at the most recent map I can find though Beaumont is marked as an important city, and is on the coast. Has anything happened there?

 

[Thande]

Perhaps, but from what I understand, there should have been a significant population of slaves and freedmen that were mostly Spanish speakers as well. You seem to mostly be speaking about the local elites, since most of the ancestors of today's Dominicans wouldn't have been able to either be co-opted or to flee the country. Unfortunately I don't have the population figures handy, but it seems that Hispaniola would be fairly diverse, and any slave rebellion or occupation in which they were freed would be far more complex than it is portrayed in the TL

EDIT: Perhaps a future place for Societism to thrive? Depending on what other countries in North America are Diversitarian, it could even be an ATL equivalent of Cuba in OTL.

OK, I'll bear that in mind in future.

So, the recent updates said that New Orleans fell to the French, and that the government retreated to Baton Rouge. Looking at the most recent map I can find though Beaumont is marked as an important city, and is on the coast. Has anything happened there?

I'll mentioned that when it next comes up but thanks for reminding me, I forget that Louisiana has expanded westward since the 1810s.

 

[Thande]

Alright people, you wanted a map, you're getting a map North America at the start of 1848, before the outbreak of the Great American War. I have deliberately not distinguished the Confederations in this case. Questions, comments, criticisms?

I am making these simple in design to facilitate easy updates and changes to show the course of the war, so no text labels.

 

[DocU]

I like the map, nice and simple.

Territorial change, seccessions etc should be easy to colour code, and the location of major / important battles and actions easy to mark.

 

[Widukind]

Very cool map. One point of attention: it shows three Mexican islands south of Louisiana. Those islands... don't exist. (Or is that meant to show some sort of other claim that I've completely forgotten about?)

 

[B_Munro]

Is there a current or near-current world map, BTW?

 

[Beedok]

I see the natives lost the Golden Horseshoe.

 

[Ed Costello]

The Quebec-Ontario border is a Fixed Point (well, fixed line) alongside the Damn Kazakh Border, I see.

It's interesting to see just how big an area proto-Superia controls. One wonders if Russia might want to lend them some support in the hope of gaining a buffer against an expansionist ENA.

Regarding the boroughs issue, one thing that occurs to me looking at that map is that there's an awful lot of Carolinian provinces in the Caribbean - by my reckoning, nearly double the number of Virginia and New York, and half as much again as Pennsylvania. Given the 'co-option' of the Hispanic upper-classes by the Carolinians, the slightly dodgy nature of the acquisition of much of the WIndies, and the large non-citizen population, I wonder if much of the Northern empire doesn't resent this massive Carolinian expansion and regard the islands as 'rotten boroughs' (even if they aren't), and maybe that's another reason there's been no new Western boroughs/provinces - Carolinian MCPs vetoing Northern expansion out of pettiness? I'unno, just my tired rambling two cents.

 

[Maltaran]

Are the Leeward/Windward islands each individual provinces, though, or are they grouped into multi-island provinces? Presumably the Bahamas is a single province.

 

[danmac]

Great map, it will certainly make keeping track of future events a lot easier. I wonder if California does succeed in its attempts for independence will the ENA try to grab some New Spanish territory that is in between. If nothing else I can see them grabbing Oregon and expanding their Drakesland Colony. I also noticed that Louisiana and the Future Superia are sitting on top of major oil deposits. How likely is it that these countries might become petrostates if they survive into the 20 century. Also it looks like the Seminole are a recognized Indian Nation in Carolina. In OTL you had runaway slaves escaping into Florida to hide with the Seminole who adopted them as their own. Has that still happened ITTL because if so I wonder how they are reacting to the Great American War? Could they be a possible American ally?

 

[Blair]

I see the natives lost the Golden Horseshoe.

Indeed, if I recall correctly they traded some Howden lands for the Horseshoe in order to physically connect their territories. Have the Supremacists managed to take that corridor away from them somehow? And on a side note, is there anything stopping the Howden from settling all of OTL northern Michigan (minus the peninsula of course). I ask because I see they've moved above the straight line that would mark the northern border of the Pennsylvania Confederation. Also the Thirteen Fires seem to have been pushed completely out of ENA territory, are there still some stragglers causing trouble around the *Red River Basin?

1815 Map for reference

 

[Thande]

Thanks for the comments everyone, I will be making some small changes in light of them (see below).

Very cool map. One point of attention: it shows three Mexican islands south of Louisiana. Those islands... don't exist. (Or is that meant to show some sort of other claim that I've completely forgotten about?)

I was a bit puzzled as well, they were there on my source map but I've never seen them before either. Must be an image artefact.

Is there a current or near-current world map, BTW?

No. The TL doesn't update each region at the same time, so by the time one has enough information to do a map for a particular year, it's already obsolete, is the difficulty. The best we've got are guesses by people which are naturally incomplete, not least because I often haven't even planned what's happening in China "now" yet or whatever.

I see the natives lost the Golden Horseshoe.

Indeed, if I recall correctly they traded some Howden lands for the Horseshoe in order to physically connect their territories.

I may alter this slightly - I realised that I've put in the founding of the town of Rowley on the site of Toronto which would be in Iroquois lands, but isn't. I think I've been too radical in the land cessions here though and I'll make Rowley just be more of an exclave instead with the Iroquois still keeping the majority in 1848. (I've previously written about New York canals and railways going through Iroquois lands, and being charged what the Supremacists consider to be outrageous tolls/tariffs in the process).

Have the Supremacists managed to take that corridor away from them somehow? And on a side note, is there anything stopping the Howden from settling all of OTL northern Michigan (minus the peninsula of course). I ask because I see they've moved above the straight line that would mark the northern border of the Pennsylvania Confederation.

Well spotted, the idea is that they're indeed settling parts of OTL northern Michigan but don't want to push it too far yet because it gives the Supremacists another talking point. Of course I haven't been entirely clear on which of these borders represent strict frontiers and which represent vaguer claim lines, largely because it's sometimes a bit hard to say that about OTL, too

Also the Thirteen Fires seem to have been pushed completely out of ENA territory, are there still some stragglers causing trouble around the *Red River Basin?

Oh sure, but this describes their core territory in which they are safe from external harrassment. It's a bit misleading of course because the population of this massive area is rather small. There are still plenty of Indians raiding closer to the frontier but no permanent state societies.

The Quebec-Ontario border is a Fixed Point (well, fixed line) alongside the Damn Kazakh Border, I see.

Weird. I didn't notice that at all until you pointed it out - I literally just drew a north-south line as an arbitrary divider on the map without thinking about it. Great minds think alike, apparently

Regarding the boroughs issue, one thing that occurs to me looking at that map is that there's an awful lot of Carolinian provinces in the Caribbean - by my reckoning, nearly double the number of Virginia and New York, and half as much again as Pennsylvania. Given the 'co-option' of the Hispanic upper-classes by the Carolinians, the slightly dodgy nature of the acquisition of much of the WIndies, and the large non-citizen population, I wonder if much of the Northern empire doesn't resent this massive Carolinian expansion and regard the islands as 'rotten boroughs' (even if they aren't), and maybe that's another reason there's been no new Western boroughs/provinces - Carolinian MCPs vetoing Northern expansion out of pettiness? I'unno, just my tired rambling two cents.

This has actually been brought up in the TL - that is indeed how the North sees it and is pissed off as a result, especially due to the dodgy way the islands were admitted in the first place. Though also see my reply to the next comment.

Are the Leeward/Windward islands each individual provinces, though, or are they grouped into multi-island provinces? Presumably the Bahamas is a single province.

On these two matters, I've just realised that the Bahamas and Leeward Islands should still be territories rather than provinces - Carolina would certainly like them to become provinces, but there's no way the Continental Parliament would have let them do it after the corrupt bargain that saw Cuba and Hispaniola get in. They are probably counted as provinces for sending delegates to the Confederate General Assembly though.

Also it looks like the Seminole are a recognized Indian Nation in Carolina. In OTL you had runaway slaves escaping into Florida to hide with the Seminole who adopted them as their own. Has that still happened ITTL because if so I wonder how they are reacting to the Great American War? Could they be a possible American ally?

Good point. The Seminole are considered an affiliated exclave of the Cherokee Empire, but aren't really integrated into the slaveocracy that has increasingly come to rule the Cherokee core lands.


Here is a corrected version of the map bearing the comments above in mind:

 

[Archangel]

The western provinces of Carolina are hard to defend.