Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

[Ed Costello]

I do like the idea of the French liberal-*leftist party also being the party of business...

One quick thing - the update mentioned that the French armourclads weren't completed until 1845, after Malraux left office. But later on it says he didn't leave office until 1847...

Nitpick and all, wonderful to have this back.

 

[Beedok]

I'm guessing Malreaux's paralysis was much worse than Chretiens?

Also political parties seem to have a rather short shelf life in Timeline L.

 

[Thande]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I've just realised that something that will come up in (probably) the next update, which I've been planning for ages, has been pre-empted by OTL. AGAIN. I won't spoil it but you'll understand when you see it. This is right up there with when I apparently accidentally caused the financial crisis in 2008 and the Arab Spring in 2011...

Question, what was Louisiana's slave administration policy? Sorry, can't recall it.

The Code Noir was the (OTL, it predates the POD) legal code used to regulate slavery in the French colonies, including Louisiana. Obviously very brutal objectively, but relatively slightly more humane than the unregulated state of affairs in British slave colonies (& what became the southern USA in OTL). For example it bans slave owners from splitting up slave families when selling them on and imposes fines on them for breaking the code--whereas in British and British-derived slave colonies slaves were often treated totally as the property of the owner to do with as they would and the law had no particular power over them. Also, bizarrely, the Code Noir specifies that a part of the fines paid by slave owners is assigned to funding hospitals, which I suppose technically makes it the first form of state healthcare in the territory that became the USA

And was the Sanchez quote taken from something in OTL or did you come up with that? It's quite a good analogy for propaganda purposes.

I came up with that, unless of course (as usual) somebody independently thought of it in OTL.

Oh, is this Societism's first foray into actual party politics? How did Sanchezist ideas end up in France at all?

Well it's meant to be a distant future thing, but watch this space.

Ominous clouds gather on the horizon....

Some really fascinating stuff there though, I wonder if environmental movements are destined to always end up choosing green as a party colour or if there's scope elsewhere?

I think when I planned this I was figuring on the irony that they choose green because it's associated with the military (new greenjacket camouflage uniforms) and it's a coincidence that they're environmentalists, but I think I lost that thought at some point in the creative process.

One quick thing - the update mentioned that the French armourclads weren't completed until 1845, after Malraux left office. But later on it says he didn't leave office until 1847...

Nitpick and all, wonderful to have this back.

Well spotted - I changed my mind about the dates halfway through writing it but missed that one. I will change the armourclad date to 1848.

I'm guessing Malreaux's paralysis was much worse than Chretiens?

That's another coincidental thing from OTL I hadn't heard about before. I was actually inspired by what happened to Winston Churchill in 1953, but here it blows up in his ministers' faces a lot faster than happened to Churchill's in OTL.

Also political parties seem to have a rather short shelf life in Timeline L.

That does seem to be a thing...in my defence this tended to be the case a lot in OTL at this point as well, it was a time of considerable upheaval in constitutional theory and popular movements.

 

[Beedok]

I apparently accidentally caused the financial crisis in 2008 and the Arab Spring in 2011...

Oy oy oy! The Arab spring was totally caused by me.

 

[Thande]

Oy oy oy! The Arab spring was totally caused by me.

Yes, I remember you saying something about that at the time. Let's call it a joint effort. And Drew probably deserves some blame too for the whole Syrian quagmire & French intervention in Mali thing.

 

[Beedok]

Yes, I remember you saying something about that at the time. Let's call it a joint effort. And Drew probably deserves some blame too for the whole Syrian quagmire & French intervention in Mali thing.

I'll accept that.

 

[othyrsyde]

The Code Noir was the (OTL, it predates the POD) legal code used to regulate slavery in the French colonies, including Louisiana. Obviously very brutal objectively, but relatively slightly more humane than the unregulated state of affairs in British slave colonies (& what became the southern USA in OTL). For example it bans slave owners from splitting up slave families when selling them on and imposes fines on them for breaking the code--whereas in British and British-derived slave colonies slaves were often treated totally as the property of the owner to do with as they would and the law had no particular power over them. Also, bizarrely, the Code Noir specifies that a part of the fines paid by slave owners is assigned to funding hospitals, which I suppose technically makes it the first form of state healthcare in the territory that became the USA

And they say socialized healthcare has no place here.

I didn't know about this, interesting to know. And your right, looking at from OTL's modern perspective it reads reads of hideous oppression, but comparatively it can be very enlightened to what was going on the British colonies.

I came up with that, unless of course (as usual) somebody independently thought of it in OTL.

Well whether someone else said something similar, you did come up with that statement, so congrats. It's really well written, and makes sense why Societism would latch on.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

It seems a waste to leave a half-finished Eden City on the table. I wonder if it might be picked up later, maybe by government types who want a capital far from the madding crowds.

I imagine at the very least that it will influence urban design when (if?) environmentalism becomes more of a widely-shared elite view.

 

[Kaiphranos]

It seems a waste to leave a half-finished Eden City on the table. I wonder if it might be picked up later, maybe by government types who want a capital far from the madding crowds.

For some reason I'm imagining it as a setting for LTTW's version of Bioshock...

 

[Blair]

Good to see black standing for something other than plain old anarchism. In fact it's refreshing to see color symbolism swapping around in general ITTL.

 

[Roberto]

Are there going to be more updates soon? I hope to see more hints leading up to the Great Ameican War!

 

[B_Munro]

The Rouvroyiste wing wanted the abolition of slavery throughout France’s colonies, while the Artaudistes maintained their Linnaean Racist beliefs and felt the only reasonable debate was over whether Louisiana’s black population should remain enslaved or be exterminated.

Ever now and then, one is reminded that there are some really fucked up elements in this TL...

Bruce

 

[Thande]

For some reason I'm imagining it as a setting for LTTW's version of Bioshock...

Heh, I like that As you and Jonathan have guessed, that half-finished city will be showing up again...

Good to see black standing for something other than plain old anarchism. In fact it's refreshing to see color symbolism swapping around in general ITTL.

Yes, it's something I've wanted to pursue with this TL from the start.

Are there going to be more updates soon? I hope to see more hints leading up to the Great Ameican War!

I hope to get some more out soon. I've been working on another project as well (not posted here) and I'm hoping to work on both of them over Christmas.

Ever now and then, one is reminded that there are some really fucked up elements in this TL...

Bruce

I don't know if it ever came up in OTL, but I just find it likely (especially with no Napoleonic regime--in the OTL way, that is!) that a latter-day French left-wing party would have some "bring back the guillotine and the Terror" awkward old backbenchers in the same way that the British Tory Party stereotypically has "bring back hanging and the birch" awkward old backbenchers. Of course here with the Linnaean Racist element to the revolution that manifests itself as race hatred as well as aristocrat killing, unlike OTL.

 

[EmmettMcFly55]

Very interesting update, bringing French history up to 1850. Would I be correct in presuming that the "Great American War" won't start in the TL until we've got some other updates that include areas of the world 'catching up' to the present day?

I wonder if TTL Louis XVII had brothers and whether they procreated, which could mean there's a (possibly ultraroyalist) side-branch of the House of Bourbon around in France, whom might attempt to interfere with politics. Speaking of which, I don't recall you mentioning whether Charles X is married and has children (but I didn't recall you mentioning that Frederick II had married Elizabeth Washington either, so it's perfectly possible that you did mention it and I forgot).

 

[Thande]

Very interesting update, bringing French history up to 1850. Would I be correct in presuming that the "Great American War" won't start in the TL until we've got some other updates that include areas of the world 'catching up' to the present day?

Yes.

I wonder if TTL Louis XVII had brothers and whether they procreated, which could mean there's a (possibly ultraroyalist) side-branch of the House of Bourbon around in France, whom might attempt to interfere with politics. Speaking of which, I don't recall you mentioning whether Charles X is married and has children (but I didn't recall you mentioning that Frederick II had married Elizabeth Washington either, so it's perfectly possible that you did mention it and I forgot).

He is married and has children but I haven't written about it yet. He was the only child of the royal household to survive the Terror, which (as you imply) has considerably helped stabilise France with no rival claimants. This is illustrated by the fact that when France had to provide Francis II of Austria with a bride, they had to resort to the granddaughter of the Duke of Orleans (Louis XVI's brother).

 

[John Spangler]

Compliments,Thande.This TL is getting more and more intriguing with each chapter.

A question:what happened to the Bourbons that IOTL ruled the Two Sicilies (from Ferdinand I to Francis II ) ? Have they been butterflied ?

 

[Thande]

Compliments,Thande.This TL is getting more and more intriguing with each chapter.

Thank you.

A question:what happened to the Bourbons that IOTL ruled the Two Sicilies (from Ferdinand I to Francis II ) ? Have they been butterflied ?

Funny you should ask, I suspect their descendants may appear in the next chapter.

What happened was that in OTL, Charles III of Spain intended for his firstborn son to inherit Spain and his second son to inherit Naples and Sicily, as treaties forbade the union of those crowns. However, Charles' firstborn son Philip was born with a severe mental condition that meant he was excluded from the succession. So Charles' second son Charles became Charles IV of Spain, while his third son Ferdinand became Ferdinand IV and III of Naples and Sicily (later Ferdinand I of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies after they were formally merged).

In TTL, however, butterflies mean that Charles III's first son Philip was born healthy in 1747 and so inherited Spain as Philip VI, as was the plan. Charles III's second son Charles therefore in TTL inherited Naples and Sicily as Charles VIII and VI. Ferdinand remained an Infante without a crown, but chose to follow Charles to Naples and Sicily and served him in various viceregal offices due to the disconnected nature of Charles' realm (especially when he added Aragon and the Balearics to it during the Jacobin Wars). I may actually repeat the above information in a recap during the update, come to think of it.

 

[Makemakean]

[1] Official residence of the Prime Minister of France. Built by Jean de Lisieux but never lived in, as he preferred to dwell in his excavated catacombs under the city. The notion of placing the residence on the hill of Montmartre, outside the then city limits, was to ensure that the Prime Minister could not be toppled by urban revolution so easily.

I cannot recall in detail the minutae of the Jacobin Revolution in this timeline, but I find this somewhat amusing, seeing in our timeline, during the French Revolution the revolutionaries were very angry with Louis XVI and the French court for living at Versailles simply because it allowed them to live a sheltered life far away from the angry urban masses and therefore demanded that he moved to Paris.

I take it that particular episode must have failed to occur in this timeline, otherwise it would seem very odd and hypocritical of Lisieux if he were to try to pull off that trick. But then again, Lisieux does seem to have been the undisputed master of falsifying history and eliminating episodes from the chronicles and the public mind that didn't serve his purposes.

By the way, what is the governmental structure of French Louisiana? Do they have a Parlement-colonial over there, or do they get to send any representatives to the Grand-Parlement, like how in our timeline today the French overseas territories send representatives to the Assemblée nationale? Or is everything dictated by whomsoever the Parisians appoint as Grand Duke?

 

[Thande]

I cannot recall in detail the minutae of the Jacobin Revolution in this timeline, but I find this somewhat amusing, seeing in our timeline, during the French Revolution the revolutionaries were very angry with Louis XVI and the French court for living at Versailles simply because it allowed them to live a sheltered life far away from the angry urban masses and therefore demanded that he moved to Paris.

I take it that particular episode must have failed to occur in this timeline, otherwise it would seem very odd and hypocritical of Lisieux if he were to try to pull off that trick. But then again, Lisieux does seem to have been the undisputed master of falsifying history and eliminating episodes from the chronicles and the public mind that didn't serve his purposes.

The Versailles thing still happened. Remember Lisieux didn't actually live in the Maison de Montmartre, it was planned that some years down the line, the government would quietly shift there as memories of the ancien régime died down. Recall that Lisieux was known for thinking in the long term, with his 25-Year Plan and so forth.

By the way, what is the governmental structure of French Louisiana? Do they have a Parlement-colonial over there, or do they get to send any representatives to the Grand-Parlement, like how in our timeline today the French overseas territories send representatives to the Assemblée nationale? Or is everything dictated by whomsoever the Parisians appoint as Grand Duke?

In theory it's run entirely by the Grand Duke as governor, who should be appointed and dismissed at the whim of the French government. In practice...well we'll get to that a few updates down the line.

 

[Makemakean]

While I know that you have deliberately set out to make Britain more "European" in this timeline, I cannot help but get the feeling that when it comes to France you are actively trying to make it more British. We are already seeing a pretty much British constitutional settlement (minus the bicameral structure of OTL UK) with a Prime Minister and a King, Bonaparte in many aspects resembled a "French Wellington" so to speak, and since the Restoration, conservative forces have been blowing pretty hard, with France not having experienced nearly the same reforming upheaval that Britain has.

Is this something deliberate?