Well the stereotypes about natives might not have seemed as explicitely negative so if someone didn't have experience dealing with the more foreign groups that's probably what they would have to rely on.
Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!
- Thread starter Thande
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Oh, and I also liked the Count of Monte Cristo reference in the part about Lawes and his Black Shadow series. Priceless. 
Yeah, though stereotypic portrayals, they were probably more of the "noble savage", positively-intentioned variety...
Yeah, though stereotypic portrayals, they were probably more of the "noble savage", positively-intentioned variety...
Yeah, I thought this was a reference to Judgement Day, too, including the racists of the day completely missing the point and trying to replace the last panel with a white dude.
Thande
Donor
Something like that. Not unlike the serials from this era in OTL (which include novels such as Dickens' as well as shorter episodic things like this).
Oh, and I also liked the Count of Monte Cristo reference in the part about Lawes and his Black Shadow series. Priceless.
Neither of those were deliberate references on my part. I wasn't aware of what Petike was referring to until I looked it up (I mean I've heard of the book but I wasn't aware of the specifics). See what I mean when I said this above?
Not as far as I know--but past experience says that whenever I think I've invented something for TTL, something similar turns out to have happened in OTL
But it's good to know I'm thinking on similar lines by coincidence
I can only express regret that I won't be the first one to give a proper account of an alternate history of photography, but I believe that I can deliver a good enough spin on its development in my own timeline. Naturally, I look forward to finding who will be the Maxwell who comes up with colour photography in Look to the West.
Nonetheless, seeing we are entering the era of Industrial Revolution, what I really look forward to seeing how the Master of Timelines will handle the steampunkification of his own Universe. You've already mentioned looms and difference engines here, so can I anticipate that we will be hearing about the development of 19th century computers soon?
Nonetheless, seeing we are entering the era of Industrial Revolution, what I really look forward to seeing how the Master of Timelines will handle the steampunkification of his own Universe. You've already mentioned looms and difference engines here, so can I anticipate that we will be hearing about the development of 19th century computers soon?
Thande
Donor
I can only express regret that I won't be the first one to give a proper account of an alternate history of photography, but I believe that I can deliver a good enough spin on its development in my own timeline. Naturally, I look forward to finding who will be the Maxwell who comes up with colour photography in Look to the West.
Nonetheless, seeing we are entering the era of Industrial Revolution, what I really look forward to seeing how the Master of Timelines will handle the steampunkification of his own Universe. You've already mentioned looms and difference engines here, so can I anticipate that we will be hearing about the development of 19th century computers soon?
Well, I mentioned difference engines in their OTL context in a footnote. Things are a wee bit different in TTL because there things have moved farther along in terms of programming (the Optel semaphore network uses the same kind of punchcard data system as the programmable looms, which has sparked increased sophistication) but not as far along in terms of electricity, research into which has been delayed by a couple of decades relative to OTL. So you'll have to wait and see.
If my memory doesn't fail me, in my all-time favourite alternate history novel, the Difference Engine, they actually have remarkably sophisticated "computers" running without electricity, only using clockwork and steam, with there being some note at the end about Lord Babbage being frustrated with the slowness of the engines and therefore doing research into electromagnetism.
In a number of (failed) attempts at doing steampunk timelines I kept coming to the conclusion that it is nigh impossible not to end up doing something that's highly derivative of the Difference Engine, which is in part why this era of your timeline interests me, as I am curious of how you intend to avoid falling into that trap.
It would be incredibly interesting if Network/Distributed computing become the primary form of computing seeing that optel networks will be the inspiration for computers. It would build on the existing programming base and it would greatly compensate for the slowness and lack of power not having electricity causes.
That would amazing, LTTW's world would be full of "computers" that would be far more capable of tasks ours find hard and vice versa. Not having starting with the perspective of computers having to be robust deterministic devices but noisy networked devices would create a marvelous different world to our own.
Reminds me of this even.
I wish I could live twice, so that I in my second life could have been a computer scientist...
Yes they did have sophisticated 'computers', ones that are literally impossible to build as the book described due to the limits of materials technology (and I mean modern materials technology, much less 19th century ones)
.The use of optel might enable an alternate that's actually plausible rather than the steampunk magic of the difference engine; lots of small mechanical processors (i.e. ones that could conceivably be built and powered without heat and wear degradation) linked by an optical bus. The keystone technology to enable this would be something that converts a light signal into a mechanical change.
Thande
Donor
Yes they did have sophisticated 'computers', ones that are literally impossible to build as the book described due to the limits of materials technology (and I mean modern materials technology, much less 19th century ones)
The use of optel might enable an alternate that's actually plausible rather than the steampunk magic of the difference engine; lots of small mechanical processors (i.e. ones that could conceivably be built and powered without heat and wear degradation) linked by an optical bus. The keystone technology to enable this would be something that converts a light signal into a mechanical change.
Yeah, I haven't read The Difference Engine but even the synoptic description sounded rather far-fetched to me. The latter technology you mention could perhaps be tied into the photography/asimcony research craze; the issue, of course, is that to my mind the most obvious means of converting a light signal to trigger a mechanism involves electricity
Which I may seize upon as a delaying factor, because I don't want this TL running ahead too much with technology unless it would be implausible for it not to; while it's largely based on an unscientific gut reaction, I always think TLs feel 'realler' to a reader if the overall state of scientific and technological progress is roughly similar to OTL, but some things moved faster and some things slower. If you could actually objectively model or view other TLs I suspect this is actually nonsense, but an author has to bear audience reactions in mind mowque
Banned
f you could actually objectively model or view other TLs I suspect this is actually nonsense, but an author has to bear audience reactions in mind
One day Thande, one day.
An interesting update. It is interesting to see some info on the state of science in this world (something which often neglected in many timelines except for a few name changes and slightly different tech) and popular culture, plus we get to sneak a peek at the Diversertarian world and its internal divisions. Its not surprising that Russia is more oppressive than England and Scotland in this timeline given the more varied peoples it has absorbed ITTL and all the attendant problems that can cause. The revealing of the 'Black Shadow' is going to be a moment that will be repeated a thousand times in many forms of media ITTL, that I am sure.
Do think its possible we'll see alternate versions of this scene, set in different areas of the globe?
teg
Do think its possible we'll see alternate versions of this scene, set in different areas of the globe?
teg
Yeah, I haven't read The Difference Engine but even the synoptic description sounded rather far-fetched to me. The latter technology you mention could perhaps be tied into the photography/asimcony research craze; the issue, of course, is that to my mind the most obvious means of converting a light signal to trigger a mechanism involves electricity
Well a sufficently well designed system involving a mercury thermometer could convert a light signal to a mechanical change. The principle challenge would be the removal of thermal noise and a low bit rate due to the time the mercury takes to move.
The problem of doing it with electronics, is that the level of understanding one needs to attain that would basically see you doing away with the mechanical system in favour of the electronic for your processing
. I suppose if you have some aspect found really early on - like selenium photoconductivity they might use that in an optical/mechanical system due to not knowing any other electronic applications.
Thande
Donor
Well a sufficently well designed system involving a mercury thermometer could convert a light signal to a mechanical change. The principle challenge would be the removal of thermal noise and a low bit rate due to the time the mercury takes to move.
The problem of doing it with electronics, is that the level of understanding one needs to attain that would basically see you doing away with the mechanical system in favour of the electronic for your processing
Yeah, quite so re electronics. Interesting idea about mercury, as you say the slow movement could be an issue though.
Speaking of mercury, I was reading about mediaeval football earlier, and one contemporary writer in the 1500s (I think) mentions footballers half-filling their ball with mercury so its movement would be less predictable for an extra challenge. I can't see FIFA signing up to that innovation alongside goal line sensors...
Just speculating wildly here (someone else will have to evaluate if this all would be feasible), but an idea I had would be a system of "plumbing-telegraphy", wherein you would have lengthy water-filled pipes running underground and you made use of Pascal's Law to transfer information around by changing the water level on different points.
Because through such a system, it ought to be possible to initiate a mechanical change miles away...
Because through such a system, it ought to be possible to initiate a mechanical change miles away...
What a fascinating update! And a fun look at a great many different aspects of popular culture, too. Before I continue with some general thoughts, I just want to say that the fictional stories you've created are very imaginative and colourful - which is never an easy task. Though of course, I'm not surprised that you were able to pull it off
With regards to photography, if we are to assume that the Paxman Process is directly analogous to the Daguerreotype, that's a lead of only 14 years over OTL. It's an even slimmer margin if we're comparing it only with the pioneering work of Niepce in 1826, but still - given how socially active Europe seems to be in this era, I imagine that it would be the equivalent of having ample photographic evidence of the Spring of Nations IOTL. I am curious as to whether we have a date for the creation of the Forteza process ITTL.
But the pulp illustrated penny-dreadfuls are just delightful. It amuses me that the Western genre is omnipresent even in the actual era of the Wild West - but, as IOTL, there's a great deal of romantic attachment to periods just outside of living memory, which sometimes coincides with periods we ourselves fondly remember, and sometimes does not. You did very well to evoke the grittiness of the "film-noir pulpy detective serials" even though all the tropes of that genre do not yet exist ITTL. The Black Shadow is reminiscent of both The Lone Ranger and The Shadow, though the shocking twist is, well, shockingly progressive for the time. IOTL, most works which were sympathetic to the plight of the Negroes (to use the anachronistic term) came to be considered disparaging by later generations (Uncle Tom's Cabin is the canonical example of this). It's hard to imagine even a northern abolitionist being so shockingly forward-thinking. That said, I don't for one moment doubt the potency of the reaction against his work. In fact, were The Black Shadow not so historically significant, it would be easy to imagine a situation in which that work was almost totally forgotten, but the reactionary parody The Black Negro would endure, even as just a morbid historical curiosity like you describe. Ironically, though, The Black Shadow cements the legitimacy of its chosen medium as an art form despite carrying the exact opposite message of its notorious OTL analogue for film (The Birth of a Nation). That's rather promising, taken in isolation.
Also, good to see you're up to your usual puns - you always make me feel so much better, as I'm clearly a mere casual punster to your pundaholic.
With regards to photography, if we are to assume that the Paxman Process is directly analogous to the Daguerreotype, that's a lead of only 14 years over OTL. It's an even slimmer margin if we're comparing it only with the pioneering work of Niepce in 1826, but still - given how socially active Europe seems to be in this era, I imagine that it would be the equivalent of having ample photographic evidence of the Spring of Nations IOTL. I am curious as to whether we have a date for the creation of the Forteza process ITTL.
But the pulp illustrated penny-dreadfuls are just delightful. It amuses me that the Western genre is omnipresent even in the actual era of the Wild West - but, as IOTL, there's a great deal of romantic attachment to periods just outside of living memory, which sometimes coincides with periods we ourselves fondly remember, and sometimes does not. You did very well to evoke the grittiness of the "film-noir pulpy detective serials" even though all the tropes of that genre do not yet exist ITTL. The Black Shadow is reminiscent of both The Lone Ranger and The Shadow, though the shocking twist is, well, shockingly progressive for the time. IOTL, most works which were sympathetic to the plight of the Negroes (to use the anachronistic term) came to be considered disparaging by later generations (Uncle Tom's Cabin is the canonical example of this). It's hard to imagine even a northern abolitionist being so shockingly forward-thinking. That said, I don't for one moment doubt the potency of the reaction against his work. In fact, were The Black Shadow not so historically significant, it would be easy to imagine a situation in which that work was almost totally forgotten, but the reactionary parody The Black Negro would endure, even as just a morbid historical curiosity like you describe. Ironically, though, The Black Shadow cements the legitimacy of its chosen medium as an art form despite carrying the exact opposite message of its notorious OTL analogue for film (The Birth of a Nation). That's rather promising, taken in isolation.
Yes, I admit, I laughed out loud at this line
Also, good to see you're up to your usual puns - you always make me feel so much better, as I'm clearly a mere casual punster to your pundaholic.
That was common in OTL too. White folks away from the frontier had a more fanciful view of Indians than those living out west. The boarding schools are a prime example of this. They were pushed by eastern humanitarians; the westerners thought it was a waste of money. There's a quote I remember from a documentary on the subject, "Trying to civilize a Mescalero is like trying to civilize a rat."
Generally speaking, if you want to see outright negative racism, visit a small town near a reservation or reserve.
Thande
Donor
Thank you.What a fascinating update! And a fun look at a great many different aspects of popular culture, too. Before I continue with some general thoughts, I just want to say that the fictional stories you've created are very imaginative and colourful - which is never an easy task. Though of course, I'm not surprised that you were able to pull it off
It's not strictly the same; the Paxman Process is based on one invented by Talbot in 1839 which was rapidly superseded in OTL. TTL misses out Daguerre's process altogether, but this then delays the development of the Forteza Process (similar to OTL calotypes, invented by Talbot only a year later in 1840) because that relies on using sodium iodide, which was already the basis of Daguerre's process but hadn't been seriously considered yet in OTL.
Yes, exactly, because the Popular Wars of the 1830s in TTL are loosely equivalent to the Spring of Nations in 1848 in OTL.
Those were certainly inspirations, although my main inspiration as I've said above were the British adventure comics of the 1930s-1970s (though, again, those were themselves influenced by American radio dramas and film serials of this type).
It's worth remembering that racism against black people in America is not a continuum where it started out as a maximum and then gradually decreased over time: the first half of the 19th century was when it started to ramp up in an institutionalised way, whereas before that it was present at a somewhat lower level. If you haven't yet seen Iainbhx's excellent Arose From Out The Azure Main in the ASB forum (1980 Britain ISOTed to 1730) it's worth checking out because he addresses this: people from 1980 Britain go to the 1730 Caribbean and American colonies expecting to find 1850s-style institutional racism, but are rather shocked when they find some colonies still have white slaves (and free blacks) and slaves are generally treated somewhat better than they were later on in the 19th century (though it depends on the colony), the culture of dehumanisation hadn't set in yet. So really you can argue that the attitudes of Lawes here represents something of a throwback as much as it does a step forward.
(You particularly notice this with European/American illustrations depicting black people, which were generally quite faithful from the 1500s up to the 19th century, then became a mass of offensive exaggerated stereotypes right up until the mid-20th century; it's peculiar when you see eighteenth century paintings like this which depict black people in a true-to-life way when you can easily find grotesque stereotypical depictions from as recently as the 1950s).
This is however also a good point. We've discussed in the past the unfortunate implications that an American work written in the past that dismissively ignored the existence of black people altogether is more likely to be considered acceptable nowadays than one which tried to be progressive at the time by including them in a positive role, but its portrayal of black people is now considered so stereotypical that it becomes offensive. You actually notice this a lot with WW2-era American superhero comics.
There is also the point that racial polarisation in the ENA in the 1830s is growing so that if you're a white man with an opinion on race, you're generally pro-black and anti-Indian or pro-Indian and anti-black - because the Whigs are considered to be the most pro-Indian party (and especially their Burdenist faction) and the Cherokee are slaveholders. So many abolitionists tend to have a poor opinion of Indians by association.
Great, saw this before I headed out to work.
Makes complete sense. Again, in OTL, there was examples of this. Thomas Jefferson more or less had similar views to that one Southern politician of TTL who wrote the book pushing for sympathies for Natives, yet viewed black people as livestock, and thus in their proper place as slaves. The opposite held true as well, Jane Grey Swisshelm was a prominent Minnesota abolitionist, but was very much for settling the west, and wanted stiffer punishments for the Dakota after the Sioux uprising. Overall, you're capturing the complexities of racism in what would have become the USA very well, while also taking into account the massive differences that arises in an entity of like the ENA.
And great job on this update
. Having studied the history of photography and media for college, this was fun to read. Forgot to mention that in my last post, but I also wanted to add a little more thought out commentary by reading into the history of comics, which will have to wait for later on in the week.- Status