Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

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The City of London is basically "What happens if you have an enclave so powerful that it can say 'Yeah...we're not doing that' every time a government passes a law changing things" from about 1400 AD to now. It's interesting to speculate if the same could have happened to one of the microstates in the HRE, perhaps (you can argue Liechtenstein is close to this). Of course one consequence of this TL, though I haven't explicitly mentioned it yet, is that the British establishment has been so torn down by the Inglorious Revolution that even the City of London has been abolished as an entity...

Quite frankly one of the great problems England in particular and Britain as a whole suffers from is that London is so much bigger than all of its rivals, plus the fact it is the financial as well as political capital of the country. (Personally I argue for moving the capital to somewhere else just to dilute some of London's influence)

Heh, no; it's just a very common Welsh surname.

If we want to make children's steam engine based series references (overly narrow superlative?) a more relevantly Welsh one would be Ivor the Engine. I used to love both that and Thomas the Tank Engine When I Were A Lad.

A combination of the terrible new episodes (a few seconds of which was enough) plus listening to THOSE DAMN SONGS for several hours as a volunteer on the Mid Hants has been enough to put me off Thomas. The books are still charming in their own way.

Its interesting to see the politics of the ENA developing, especially in contrast to the relatively stable politics of even the antebellum in OTL. My personal prediction for the Great North American War at this point is broadly this;

UPSA and ENA vs. Carolina and New Spain - in this scenario, the Carolinians are basically doomed; they have less territory than the OTL Confederacy and their principal ally is going to have to divert troops to their southern flank or lose everything south of Panama. On the other hand I fully expect Thande to throw in a curve-ball at some point which will ruin this prediction (your very good at that :)) Still, the odds are against Carolina in this timeline unless it is the ENA vs. everyone else in the hemisphere for the same reasons the CSA was on the back foot in the civil war.

teg
 
Nope! Not even Worcestershire's HRE-like bizarre exclaves. The People's Kingdom is really an example of the Redcliffe-Maud report attitude on steroids when it comes to ignoring historical tradition and precedent or even deliberately going against it just to spite the deposed establishment. Really I think the whole idea is under-explored in AH, there often seems to be an unspoken assumption that even a communist Britain is going to keep a lot of traditional 'eccentric' ways of doing something we just take for granted, but why should it?

Of course, as the intro to part 3 mentioned, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...

Insert relevent Darth Vadar clip here.:p

Heh, no; it's just a very common Welsh surname.

If we want to make children's steam engine based series references (overly narrow superlative?) a more relevantly Welsh one would be Ivor the Engine. I used to love both that and Thomas the Tank Engine When I Were A Lad.

Oh I love that. Idriss is just the most adorable heraldic dragon you could come across. Also, unintended consequence of decimilisation #41: We can't use the new coins in the meter for our dragon's gas powered volcanoe:D
 
Ah, but that's the point, it can be regarded as an example of 'it can't happen here', or (a la the Draka / Decades of Darkness for the USA) flipping a country into a dark mirror of itself with inverted values but still recognisable, which is rightly a holy grail of allohistorical speculation. You can tell sometimes when I'm perhaps being a bit too blatant with the "EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDZ" schtick, like when in the framing story Wostyn refers to modern LTTW England as having gendarmes...


Well, that too ;)


Nope! Not even Worcestershire's HRE-like bizarre exclaves. The People's Kingdom is really an example of the Redcliffe-Maud report attitude on steroids when it comes to ignoring historical tradition and precedent or even deliberately going against it just to spite the deposed establishment. Really I think the whole idea is under-explored in AH, there often seems to be an unspoken assumption that even a communist Britain is going to keep a lot of traditional 'eccentric' ways of doing something we just take for granted, but why should it?

Of course, as the intro to part 3 mentioned, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...

These are excellent points in AH in general. Not to say if King Frederick the Great had tea one morning instead of coffee, or what have you, would lead to George Washington becoming Emperor of China, but certain circumstances and butterflies can rend apart anything we take for granted. It's something I'm exploring as well in my TL as well; you did give me that excellent advice for an alternate Industrial Revolution.
 
Patagonia is incorporated.

Eh, I hate looking at a bunch of "unsettled wilderness" in the Americas all the time. I would have gotten rid of them but I just didn't know what to make the situation of New Holland.

Excellent map, Hawkeye!

Am I the only one who gets the sense that it'd be quite a bit tidier to (eventually, once the region has settled, more populated, and has developed its own character) form some sort of Midwestern Confederation within the ENA? Something about those straight lines stretching for hundreds of miles is just...repulsive.

Thanks

I always thought that the confederations were supposed to look ugly because the ENA is the opposite of the Holy Roman Empire. I don't know where I got that from but that's just my opinion.

Indeed, nice work.

Thank you :)

One comment I will make; in terms of map colours for the ENA, I don't think either British-Dominion pink or USA blue is particularly appropriate at this point. I'd say the R-TCS Canada colour is probably most fitting, but that does come with its own issues I admit.

I know but I don't really feel like the Canada color fits either. It's America which already has a color. Besides, I wasn't going for style for this, I just wanted to show what was going on.

Nice map. The only correction I would make offhand is that the Boers joined the Cape Republic so should not be shown separately.

Re colours, I actually thought a while back that if I made a UCS map I might give the ENA the British colour and give Britain the USA colour for irony ;)

I don't feel like it fits just yet. I'll spare Britain from dawning my favorite map color until I get to read the chapter which I've longed look forward to.

UPSA and ENA vs. Carolina and New Spain - in this scenario, the Carolinians are basically doomed; they have less territory than the OTL Confederacy and their principal ally is going to have to divert troops to their southern flank or lose everything south of Panama. On the other hand I fully expect Thande to throw in a curve-ball at some point which will ruin this prediction (your very good at that :)) Still, the odds are against Carolina in this timeline unless it is the ENA vs. everyone else in the hemisphere for the same reasons the CSA was on the back foot in the civil war.

teg

I disagree. For one, while Carolina doesn't have all of the OTL South, it does have a lot of territory it didn't have like Cuba and Haiti. It's also more politically united then the CSA was and if I remember correctly, it also has more industry as well.
 
Glad you liked it :D


This bit wasn't intentional when I came up with it...the ENA just seems to have very volatile politics. I suppose you can make the comparison to Canada in OTL, which can go from this to this in less than a decade.
Well weather it was intentional or not, keep it up. It makes it much more interesting.
 
Basically I forgot it existed and then when someone pointed it out, I retconned it as the Spanish having conquered it (and British Honduras) during one of the Wars of Supremacy.

Not a bad and unrealistic retcon, especially since the ENA ended up with the Caribbean.
 
Ooooh, as always, some questions!

1. Is the Menominee Territory going back to New England, or is it still imperial controlled? I can see it going back to recompensate for the lack of Rupert's Land and Carolina gaining effective control of the British West Indies.
2. What are the exact borders of American Oregon?
3. On Hawkeye and Roberto's maps the Upper Peninsula is independent. Was it crushed and reabsorbed in the Superior War, I thought, or is it truly independent?
4. I know *Quebec has likely become heavily Americanized as Louisiana is in OTL. How about the former French Haiti and Spanish Cuba/Santo Domingo in TTL's 'present' (about 1845-50 I believe?)

Annnnd some observations...

1. It just occurred to me. Is Henry Owens-Allen's coming to America a reference to that rumor of a Prussian coming to be 'King of the United States?'
2. It seems Michael Webster and John Vanburen are TTL's parallels to Daniel Webster and Martin Van Buren. Interesting even Van Buren's name is now one word like other Anglicized Dutch names like 'Vanderbilt'....I do like they even managed to get similar positions as a foreign secretary and President like reality, though. Nice to still see some convergence.
3. A very nice touch on incorporating the talk on western cities' settlement as pocket and rotten boroughs. I feel Chichago is too wonderful a city site to not be a minor city by any sort of present day, and most cities in the older midwest were settled on natural spots (river bends and mouths, etc) for a reason even before the railroad became commonplace in America. I also feel you can handwave any early western settlement due to Britain's lack of a 1763 Proclamation in TTL
4. I totally think we need to adopt the 'Arc of Power' as a name for the BosWash megaopolis. :D
5. Speaking of the Arc, points for keeping Williamsburg as a major city. The ability to remain Virginian/Williamsburg-shire's capital, and William and Mary's sudden lack of funding from the ARW being butterflied away, means it ought be able to stay important - it can even diversify its economy away from government via being a railroad stop (it was missed out in our world via NOT being capital or important anymore) and perhaps even expanding to be a minor seaport in TTL.
6. I'm glad that the government is coordinating a canal plan, and also it seems Virginia is becoming, as I noted earlier, a 'northern' confederacy. Interesting.

IN GENERAL...very well researched. You honestly make reading about American history, even in an alternate world, an exciting thing to do again as it compares to OTL. I'm glad someone is giving such detailed attention to this period of the country.

I bow to your excellent work, as I always shall do.
 

Thande

Donor
1. Is the Menominee Territory going back to New England, or is it still imperial controlled? I can see it going back to recompensate for the lack of Rupert's Land and Carolina gaining effective control of the British West Indies.
It's still imperial controlled for now, but is one of the issues up for debate in the near future.

2. What are the exact borders of American Oregon?
Only defined close to the coast, in which it only currently takes in a relatively small area due to being hemmed in by the New Spanish and Russian forts. The intension is to bend the as yet undefined borders north and south as they get further inland, restricting the New Spanish and Russians to their coastal forts. Obviously there is going to be trouble over this at some point.
3. On Hawkeye and Roberto's maps the Upper Peninsula is independent. Was it crushed and reabsorbed in the Superior War, I thought, or is it truly independent?
It was crushed and reabsorbed (for now at least), I forgot to tell them to correct that. The 13 Fires and the Republicans have moved further west.
4. I know *Quebec has likely become heavily Americanized as Louisiana is in OTL. How about the former French Haiti and Spanish Cuba/Santo Domingo in TTL's 'present' (about 1845-50 I believe?)
Hispaniola and Cuba are more Americanised than OTL modern Puerto Rico but not as much as any OTL modern US state. I can't think of a good direct analogy from OTL. To some extent you can make the comparison to Confederate Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba from Turtledove's TL-191 in that it's a case of "new Anglo ruling class manage to work out a deal with old Hispanic ruling class for them to share power, and for now the people will vote the way their landlords tell them, but there will be trouble in the future". Of course the presence of both black slaves and Maroon rebels complicate the Carolinian Caribbean to an extent.

1. It just occurred to me. Is Henry Owens-Allen's coming to America a reference to that rumor of a Prussian coming to be 'King of the United States?'
To some extent it was inspired by that.
2. It seems Michael Webster and John Vanburen are TTL's parallels to Daniel Webster and Martin Van Buren. Interesting even Van Buren's name is now one word like other Anglicized Dutch names like 'Vanderbilt'....I do like they even managed to get similar positions as a foreign secretary and President like reality, though. Nice to still see some convergence.
They are people from the same families, not necessarily similar in character. I like to use about a fifty-fifty mix of recognisable American political names from OTL and invented ones, just because so many American politicians (especially in the 19th century) descend from families whose power already existed or would likely come about regardless of the changes in OTL. Probably the best example of this (which I need to use at some point) is the Tafts, who have held some form of political office nigh continuously in British North America and the USA practically since the Mayflower arrived. Almost the US equivalent of the Salisbury dynasty in the UK. On the other hand, of course, some names are common enough that you can't really say if they're from OTL political families or not, e.g. Solomon and Jethro Carter.

I decided to go with anglicising surnames more, both just because it feels 'more different' and the in-universe justification is a more fervent period of anti-French (and by extension anti-foreigner) prescriptive sentiment in the mid-18th century (hence also why English spelling is different in TTL, changing a few more 'cq's to 'ck's for instance--this is when we started spelling racquet and picquet as racket and picket).

4. I totally think we need to adopt the 'Arc of Power' as a name for the BosWash megaopolis. :D
I'm surprised a name for it hasn't come about in OTL. Mind you, I was also surprised that there didn't seem to be an older name for the Delmarva Peninsula, despite it having been settled for centuries. (I made up 'Chesapeake Peninsula' for TTL as that seems logical).
5. Speaking of the Arc, points for keeping Williamsburg as a major city. The ability to remain Virginian/Williamsburg-shire's capital, and William and Mary's sudden lack of funding from the ARW being butterflied away, means it ought be able to stay important - it can even diversify its economy away from government via being a railroad stop (it was missed out in our world via NOT being capital or important anymore) and perhaps even expanding to be a minor seaport in TTL.
Reading about the ARW you realise how many former major cities went into decline because of it, especially on the coast of course, and I wonder if it's actually the origin of the whole "American states' capitals are generally little places you've never heard of rather than the big recognisable cities" trope, as a lot of colonial capitals moved inland to escape the British and then never moved back.

To be fair I've probably managed to miss a lot of examples of these kinds of changes that should have happened in TTL, but Williamsburg was a fairly obvious one.


IN GENERAL...very well researched. You honestly make reading about American history, even in an alternate world, an exciting thing to do again as it compares to OTL. I'm glad someone is giving such detailed attention to this period of the country.

I bow to your excellent work, as I always shall do.
Thank you!
 
I'm surprised a name for it hasn't come about in OTL. Mind you, I was also surprised that there didn't seem to be an older name for the Delmarva Peninsula, despite it having been settled for centuries. (I made up 'Chesapeake Peninsula' for TTL as that seems logical).

Well when people talked about the 'Eastern Seaboard' and the 'East', what they meant was that chain of cities. Why come up with a special name when a generic will serve just as well? After all the USA is the entire universe and there nothing outside that generic terms like 'the south' would get confused over ;).

Plus Americans do and did hold to the bizarre notion that their state borders actually mean something, and don't like to admit to being part of inter-state economic units.

It's amusing you'd coin a term for it here, when I'd argue it's likely to be less of a coherent unit than in the OTL (Addition of Mount Royal as a competing entrepot, lower density southern New England, a Philadelphia that's not beholden to New Yorks control of the west, no Washington, the Virginian cities further south).
 

Thande

Donor
It's amusing you'd coin a term for it here, when I'd argue it's likely to be less of a coherent unit than in the OTL (Addition of Mount Royal as a competing entrepot, lower density southern New England, a Philadelphia that's not beholden to New Yorks control of the west, no Washington, the Virginian cities further south).
The 'Arc of Power' by my definition includes four out of the five confederate capitals plus the national capital so I think it still qualifies as 'that place where those blasted politicians live' equivalent to 'the Beltway' in the popular imagination (on a much smaller scale) in OTL...bear in mind I'm describing a larger area of the seaboard than I think Umbric Man meant. A UK comparison might be the Home Counties, especially nowadays with the commuter belt.

Good point about Mount Royal though.
 
Being from the southern end of the Arc of Power, every so often you'll hear the term "the BosWash Corridor" being bandied about, but I doubt that said term goes back further than the 50s. It refers mostly to the more-or-less continuous stripe of suburbia that connects DC, B'more, Philly, NYC and Boston.
 
In all fairness, Mount Royal could be a northern analogue to Atlanta - a major city and transportation hub in its own right, close to but not part of the megapolis.

That said, Fredericksburg down to Norfolk isn't too far off from Baltimore at all to give reason to extending TTL's BosWash, and westward settlement is slower... so there's still much - possibly even to TTL's present day - settlement and population density in the east coast. In some ways I'm surprised BosWash of OTL isn't BosFolk anyways by throwing northern Virginia and Richmond down to Norfolk.
 
I'm assuming that the entirety of the British West Indies will be incorporated into Carolina at some point, or at least they will try to do that. However, there will be some controversy as to how:

Elements of Carolina will want to boost their power in the Imperial parliament, and will thus want as many provinces and seats as possible. Chances are the Imperial Whigs will push for Kingston to become a borough and the Bahamas becoming a full-blown province ASAP*, and all of the Lesser Antilles to be admitted as one or more territories.

On the other hand, the other Confederations will want to minimise Carolinan expansionism, probably pushing for the Lesser Antilles to become either one territory by itself, or Imperial colonies outside of the ENA itself, like Prince Rupert's Land and Drakesland, and to keep the Bahamas as a territory. Additionally, I'm not sure how much parts of Carolina's Confederate Parliament will want to shift the centre of power further south - particularly the likes of North Carolina and the shires in line with it, which will be growing different stuff to the Cotton Planters of South Carolina and Georgia, and the Sugar Planters of the Carribean.

Actually, is there a big split (politically) between the planters based on what crops they grow? Might be something to consider.

This whole "Ontario Controversy" intrigues me. I'm assuming it either has something to do with "who gets connected to Lake Ontario first (as OTL), and all the shenanigans and pocket-lining involved", similarly to the railway scandals of the US and UK IOTL during this period, or "do the Howden benefit from the New York Confederation's canal project?".



*The territories don't have MCPs at the moment. Will this change later on?

Its interesting to see the politics of the ENA developing, especially in contrast to the relatively stable politics of even the antebellum in OTL. My personal prediction for the Great North American War at this point is broadly this;

UPSA and ENA vs. Carolina and New Spain - in this scenario, the Carolinians are basically doomed; they have less territory than the OTL Confederacy and their principal ally is going to have to divert troops to their southern flank or lose everything south of Panama. On the other hand I fully expect Thande to throw in a curve-ball at some point which will ruin this prediction (your very good at that :)) Still, the odds are against Carolina in this timeline unless it is the ENA vs. everyone else in the hemisphere for the same reasons the CSA was on the back foot in the civil war.

I'm getting the feeling that the French will come in on one side, while the Grand Duchy of Louisiana later switching sides (a la Savoy) to become independent. There was a hint of the war going to extend itself to Austalia, and as we know that French Tasmania (whatever it's called) is independent towards the end of the 19th century, so this may have something to do with it.
 
AE, fascinating post and I must reply:

Never considered the planters' potential split but excellent point! They all would probably hang together (ahem) due to linking over slavery though.

I always saw the British Lesser Antilles as likely becoming one shire on its own, Jamaica another (with Kingston as a borough), and the Bahamas still another. That way you get the best ratio of size-to-population-to-geography IMO.

Heck, perhaps even Bridgetown and Nassau would be worthy of borough status, who knows?
 
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