Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

[Vosem]

That was fucking brilliant. This Great American War, which somehow involves the exiled Prussian, is just becoming more and more murky and strange as time goes on...

Thande, I do hope you'll let me figure out what the specific electoral map would've looked like in 1837 and 1840 (including what the 25 extra seats were; largely cities in New England and Pennsylvania, but also some western places because population growth, and a few crumbs thrown to other places for the purposes of 19th century LTTW 'political correctness'), as I did for 1832; I should have both years ready for you by the middle of the week

 

[othyrsyde]

I'm guessing Carolina makes a rather bloody attempt to defend it with opportunistic New Spanish help...

There were some hints that the ENA falls apart to one degree or another in the way back, or at least that was my interruption of the cryptic text.

 

[Umbric Man]

There were some hints that the ENA falls apart to one degree or another in the way back, or at least that was my interruption of the cryptic text.

Depressing!

To be fair, I guess I can see it happening since the Upper South of OTL, Missouri to Maryland, is becoming solidly 'northern' way sooner than reality.

 

[othyrsyde]

Depressing!

To be fair, I guess I can see it happening since the Upper South of OTL, Missouri to Maryland, is becoming solidly 'northern' way sooner than reality.

Like I said, it could just be my interruption and memory of something I read back in 2009 or 10.

 

[Finn]

Like I said, it could just be my interruption and memory of something I read back in 2009 or 10.

I thought it was the Empire of New Spain that was going to fall apart? Then again, like you, it's possible my memory is tricking me.

 

[Admiral Matt]

I thought it was the Empire of New Spain that was going to fall apart? Then again, like you, it's possible my memory is tricking me.

Both. But to be fair he never actually said anything like the words "fall apart." It was all quite Jaredian.

That said, the North America hint was a lot less dire sounding than the New Spain hint.

 

[Thande]

That was fucking brilliant. This Great American War, which somehow involves the exiled Prussian, is just becoming more and more murky and strange as time goes on...

Thande, I do hope you'll let me figure out what the specific electoral map would've looked like in 1837 and 1840 (including what the 25 extra seats were; largely cities in New England and Pennsylvania, but also some western places because population growth, and a few crumbs thrown to other places for the purposes of 19th century LTTW 'political correctness'), as I did for 1832; I should have both years ready for you by the middle of the week

Vosem has sent me some very detailed ideas about this and I am impressed, for the record. I had privately assumed that it was too big a task for me to sort out a new ENA electoral map anytime soon and I was just going to keep it deliberately vague, but thanks to this I might be able to make one after all.

It was all quite Jaredian.

I like this neologism Needs to be a thing.

 

[Admiral Matt]

I like this neologism Needs to be a thing.

Probably doable.

Actually I had a thought regarding a direction an alternate LTTW might have taken. Did you ever consider having the British monarchy accumulate more power as a result of the Anglo-American personal union?

I've been coming across monarchy dynamics quite a bit in my reading lately, and a point that keeps cropping up is that one of the most fundamental issues is income. A monarch with an ample income can quite literally afford a bit of absolutism where one that needs money will often end up beholden to someone or other. Where a parliament or related body exists, they have a strong tendency to be that "someone."

One possible outcome of the Hanoverians gaining a second crown (or rather, a second remunerative one!) would seem to be less financial dependence on either. A pair of kingdoms with accumulating royal power might be worth a timeline in its own right. I suppose that was precluded by other factors?

 

[Thande]

Probably doable.

Actually I had a thought regarding a direction an alternate LTTW might have taken. Did you ever consider having the British monarchy accumulate more power as a result of the Anglo-American personal union?

I've been coming across monarchy dynamics quite a bit in my reading lately, and a point that keeps cropping up is that one of the most fundamental issues is income. A monarch with an ample income can quite literally afford a bit of absolutism where one that needs money will often end up beholden to someone or other. Where a parliament or related body exists, they have a strong tendency to be that "someone."

One possible outcome of the Hanoverians gaining a second crown (or rather, a second remunerative one!) would seem to be less financial dependence on either. A pair of kingdoms with accumulating royal power might be worth a timeline in its own right. I suppose that was precluded by other factors?

An interesting point. You are correct in that a parliament's control over income is its chief stay on the monarch having absolute power (something also true of the US presidency vs Congress today). Arguably in TTL of course the monarchy did gain more power relative to OTL. The ENA is not the best choice for a monarch trying to gain an additional source of means however, given Americans' reluctance to part with taxes regardless of the timeline Though I suppose you could say that the Crown could obtain more funding through the rent on personal land possessions in the colonies.

 

[othyrsyde]

I thought it was the Empire of New Spain that was going to fall apart? Then again, like you, it's possible my memory is tricking me.

See I don't even remember that. Just figured it was inevitable with the UPSA going Societist.

Probably doable.

Actually I had a thought regarding a direction an alternate LTTW might have taken. Did you ever consider having the British monarchy accumulate more power as a result of the Anglo-American personal union?

I've been coming across monarchy dynamics quite a bit in my reading lately, and a point that keeps cropping up is that one of the most fundamental issues is income. A monarch with an ample income can quite literally afford a bit of absolutism where one that needs money will often end up beholden to someone or other. Where a parliament or related body exists, they have a strong tendency to be that "someone."

One possible outcome of the Hanoverians gaining a second crown (or rather, a second remunerative one!) would seem to be less financial dependence on either. A pair of kingdoms with accumulating royal power might be worth a timeline in its own right. I suppose that was precluded by other factors?

Never thought of this, but it makes sense.

 

[Analytical Engine]

It took me a while to come up with that one...terrifyingly, it came out sounding rather Welsh.

What's wrong with that?

For those of you having trouble following the political evolution of the ENA's parties, here's a diagram. (Compare to an actual OTL one from an 1883 book).

How delightfully convoluted.

 

[ArKhan]

I wonder if ALT Bismarck will be showing up at some point in TTL.

 

[ArKhan]

We can has election map? K thnx.

 

[Hawkeye]

I tried to make this map as up to date as possible. Feel free to point anything out.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Patagonia is incorporated.

 

[Finn]

Excellent map, Hawkeye!

Am I the only one who gets the sense that it'd be quite a bit tidier to (eventually, once the region has settled, more populated, and has developed its own character) form some sort of Midwestern Confederation within the ENA? Something about those straight lines stretching for hundreds of miles is just...repulsive.

 

[Ed Costello]

Excellent map, Hawkeye!

Indeed, nice work.

One comment I will make; in terms of map colours for the ENA, I don't think either British-Dominion pink or USA blue is particularly appropriate at this point. I'd say the R-TCS Canada colour is probably most fitting, but that does come with its own issues I admit.

Am I the only one who gets the sense that it'd be quite a bit tidier to (eventually, once the region has settled, more populated, and has developed its own character) form some sort of Midwestern Confederation within the ENA? Something about those straight lines stretching for hundreds of miles is just...repulsive.

I think there have been hints at this in the development of the Neutral Party; I'm guessing, though, that any change in structure will have to wait until after the Great American War. Apart from anything else, if the last update's anything to go by none of the current American parties (with the possible exception of the ominously vague Supremacists) have any real interest in reforming the Confederations. Hell, the Whigs in Carolina seem so paranoid that *any* reform attempt that comes from the Imperial government could well be interpreted as a mortal threat and lead to Charleston going bonkers.

EDIT: By 'hints in the development of the Neutral Party', I'm referring to rather more explicit stuff that's come up in discussion about the Neutrals' western support base. There may be more implicit hints in the text, but I'm not smart enough to notice those.

 

[TheBerlinguer]

Thande, may I ask you just one thing about the American Phoenix Party (i.e. the Patriots, but the former could be a better name for them, if it weren't for the unfortunate British omonimous)?

Just how much political capital could they really have to get a (even thin) majority government, when they had disgregated because they had proposed more interactions with the British Isles in what was just the worst possible moment and then had reunited without a clear electoral base or a government program, thanks mostly to the charisma of one faction's leader who almost immediately opted to go back to Africa, leaving everything just like it was thirty years before, a "do-nothing", politically indefinite party that also finds itself in a developed multi-party system where competition is the last thing they lack and with their electoral stronghold more and more (ignominiously) contended by the last to come to the party, the Suprematists?

Could the novelty-effect or the nostalgia for old times (hinted in the chapter as dominant in popular culture during the Gloom) really help the Patriots that much? If so, their window of opportunity is really going to be short-lived and this time disgregation could be the best possible outcome at the 1845 (?) elections.

 

[Thande]

I tried to make this map as up to date as possible. Feel free to point anything out.

Nice map. The only correction I would make offhand is that the Boers joined the Cape Republic so should not be shown separately.

Re colours, I actually thought a while back that if I made a UCS map I might give the ENA the British colour and give Britain the USA colour for irony

Thande, may I ask you just one thing about the American Phoenix Party (i.e. the Patriots, but the former could be a better name for them, if it weren't for the unfortunate British omonimous)?

Just how much political capital could they really have to get a (even thin) majority government, when they had disgregated because they had proposed more interactions with the British Isles in what was just the worst possible moment and then had reunited without a clear electoral base or a government program, thanks mostly to the charisma of one faction's leader who almost immediately opted to go back to Africa, leaving everything just like it was thirty years before, a "do-nothing", politically indefinite party that also finds itself in a developed multi-party system where competition is the last thing they lack and with their electoral stronghold more and more (ignominiously) contended by the last to come to the party, the Suprematists?

Could the novelty-effect or the nostalgia for old times (hinted in the chapter as dominant in popular culture during the Gloom) really help the Patriots that much? If so, their window of opportunity is really going to be short-lived and this time disgregation could be the best possible outcome at the 1845 (?) elections.

The Patriots didn't get in because people like them (although nostalgia may be a factor as you say) they got in because there was little organised coherent competition and they have a Peter Mandelson or Karl Rove-style guru in Edmund Grey who knows how to play the system. Remember that although the ENA is a multi-party system, it is not a proportional one; it's based on FPTP bloc voting, which means that a party can take advantage of a split vote to be elected with a small plurality. As it mentioned in the text, the main victory of the Patriots came through Grey focusing on Virginia, where the anti-Patriot vote splits uselessly between the new Liberals, the Democrats who were founded there (the pre-existing Neutrals being divided between the two) and the Whigs, and some angry independents in Maryland. So the Patriots grabbed a load of seats they haven't held since Artemas Ward's day. Whether they can hold onto them after the political landscape has settled down is another question: Grey's strategy only worked because the former Neutral vote is in the process of being fought over by the Liberals and the Democrats (in the west as well as in Virginia). All of this ultimately stems from hubris on the part of Vanburen, who thought the Neutrals were so quiescent he could literally just fold them into one party and tell them what to do (and given past experience one could forgive him; getting their support from many disparate regions, the Neutrals failed to come up with a single strong voice and so were led along by the Radicals until they hit breaking point under Vanburen). Rest assured that one-party majority governments are very much an aberration in ENA politics...

 

[mowque]

Long live silent Mo.