Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!

[B_Munro]

That's one of the perks of alternate history writing: creating your own system of government, and having fun with the consequent fallout...

Bruce

 

[Michael Canaris]

I'm just gobsmacked. Brilliant update, as always (I suspect that Local Government will be nigh on foremost in subsequent Regressivist agendas.) As a stop-gap measure, might Britain see something analogous to Prefects?

 

[Incognitia]

Wow. The sweeping reforms, which abolish the separate Scottish legal system by omission, remove all local government...

And is it wrong of me to foresee trouble from the "land-borne marines"? Or will there just be a lot of land-borne marines barracked in Scotland and occasionally aiding the (next to non-existent) local authorities as we deal with the fall-out of poor Scottish representation? Sounds like Scotland is going to go thoroughly to rat-shit at some point, anyway.

 

[Thande]

Thanks for the comments everyone!

I was going to ask for a constituency map when you first mentioned they were redrawing them, but I think I'll stick to just requesting a House of Knights county apportionment map (the Scottish situation is one where I'm trying to work matters out. Ross+Cromaty is pretty obvious, and there's probably some mergers in the North-East and borders, but anything which elimates all exclaves is going to lead to some monstrously huge counties in terms of population).

I was assuming for a while that drawing a constituency map would be well-nigh impossible due to not having an idea of population distribution, but after making several OTL election maps for a while now, I know have enough knowledge that it might be possible...but it would be a gargantuan project.

Wow. The sweeping reforms, which abolish the separate Scottish legal system by omission, remove all local government...

And is it wrong of me to foresee trouble from the "land-borne marines"? Or will there just be a lot of land-borne marines barracked in Scotland and occasionally aiding the (next to non-existent) local authorities as we deal with the fall-out of poor Scottish representation? Sounds like Scotland is going to go thoroughly to rat-shit at some point, anyway.

Also I should point out that your sig has come full circle here--it originally referred to you correctly guessing what the obscure reference to the then-in-the-future House of Knights was when mentioned in a past update.

 

[ArKhan]

The smallest counties in terms of population were combined with their neighbours for purpose of representation: Rutland with Lincolnshire, Westmorland with Cumberland, and so on. This process of consolidation was handled relatively well in England and Wales but often bungled in Scotland, which would have important consequences down the line.

Can't wait to see what it is...

 

[ArKhan]

So Britian has less law and order at a time when poverty and crime will be exploding due to the industrial revolution. That will be rather interesting. I hope you do a bit about the ALT crime bosses and gangs of london of course.

 

[Roberto]

So Britian has less law and order at a time when poverty and crime will be exploding due to the industrial revolution. That will be rather interesting. I hope you do a bit about the ALT crime bosses and gangs of london of course.

I can kind of see this as a glorified era of British history, like the Wild West or Prohibition-era mafia or Australia's bandits. Lots of movies and books based on the more colorful characters, or their fictionalized versions. An industrial era Robin Hood, maybe? (If Thande hasn't done that already, I seem to think that he has).

 

[Kaiphranos]

So Britian has less law and order at a time when poverty and crime will be exploding due to the industrial revolution. That will be rather interesting. I hope you do a bit about the ALT crime bosses and gangs of london of course.

I've been reading the Sherlock Holmes stories lately, so this seems like a pretty cool idea to me! (Not quite the right era, but it's alternate history anyway...) Also, I expect there will be some interesting times in the cities of the ENA if London crime bosses try spreading their nets abroad...

 

[othyrsyde]

So Britian has less law and order at a time when poverty and crime will be exploding due to the industrial revolution. That will be rather interesting. I hope you do a bit about the ALT crime bosses and gangs of london of course.

I can kind of see this as a glorified era of British history, like the Wild West or Prohibition-era mafia or Australia's bandits. Lots of movies and books based on the more colorful characters, or their fictionalized versions. An industrial era Robin Hood, maybe? (If Thande hasn't done that already, I seem to think that he has).

I've been reading the Sherlock Holmes stories lately, so this seems like a pretty cool idea to me! (Not quite the right era, but it's alternate history anyway...) Also, I expect there will be some interesting times in the cities of the ENA if London crime bosses try spreading their nets abroad...

That'd be hella sick, especially if the crime networks spread over to the ENA and beyond. It's a bit early for international crime syndicates, but the foundations could be laid there. Just imagining TTL's gangster cinema looking like a combo of the 'Godfather' and 'Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels'

This period could also be a great springboard for how English speaking crime fiction forms. A unique literary figure could be like a combo of Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes. He could be at the same time a working class hero and a figure that leads Britain to 'find a new path' back to the metaphorical house.

 

[Thande]

Thanks everyone--I find these discussions useful because they give me new ideas. I was already planning an update about an alternative development of 'penny dreadful' (in OTL Britain, AKA dime novel in the OTL USA) style fiction in the ENA, but you've pointed out that Populist Britain could also be a rich catalyst for that.

 

[Max Sinister]

This TL really is incredible, Thande.

Part #155: The Last Ride of Moritz Benyovsky

“If we look to our history, we see that there are men who wear the false clothes of nationality lightly, changing them on a whim, using them as tools to reach their goals of adventure and the pursuit of knowledge across the terraqueous globe. We celebrate the achievements of such men and look up to them, yet we fail to understand the connection between their great deeds and their personal realisation that the hidebound categorisations that constrain the actions of lesser men are nothing more than arbitrary self-imposed rules. It is the second which makes the first possible...”

–Pablo Sanchez, Unity Through Society (1841)​

Now I'm waiting for a satirist (think Mark Twain) making fun of Sanchez' style, a la: "terraqueous globe? How many spheres covered by water and dirt are there, except Earth?"

And for some reason, I keep thinking that Benvovsky could be Jewish.

Also, a question: Did you decide on a color for Societism already? Because I keep wondering: Black isn't the best color, being associated with death and funerals in Europe; but for the same reason, white isn't optimal either...

 

[Kaiphranos]

Random thought I had last night:

Thande, is your new title of "pizza ninja" a hint that the Russo-Lithuanian Pacific Company may soon be invading Italy?

Maybe in LTTW, "pizza ninja" is an action movie genre like OTL "spaghetti westerns." (With Italy doubling for parts of Central Asia, perhaps?)

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

A real crackerjack update, top notch all 'round.

I'm surethe parliament stuff would be alot more interesting if I better understood the workings of the british government, but as is, there's two things that stand out in a rather strong way.

first, all of this talk about the forthcoming period of criminality in britain, and of the the bastard offspring of sherlock holmes and robin hood to go with it, has me thinking of nothig quite so much as a collection of colorful masked vigilantes prowling the streets and rooftops of an english city.

and second, whats all this with the regressives and the feminists!?

 

[Thande]

This TL really is incredible, Thande.

Thank you.

Now I'm waiting for a satirist (think Mark Twain) making fun of Sanchez' style, a la: "terraqueous globe? How many spheres covered by water and dirt are there, except Earth?"

"The Terraqueous Globe" is a common 18th century poetic phrase for the Earth. It's mainly associated with a quote from Voltaire who used it, but I believe it predates that.

Also, a question: Did you decide on a color for Societism already? Because I keep wondering: Black isn't the best color, being associated with death and funerals in Europe; but for the same reason, white isn't optimal either...

It's black. It's not as if the association with death has ever stopped OTL anarchists (or the CDU in Germany). The reasons behind this will be covered in a future update: suffice to say that it wasn't Sanchez who chose the colour.

 

[teg]

This TL really is incredible, Thande.



Now I'm waiting for a satirist (think Mark Twain) making fun of Sanchez' style, a la: "terraqueous globe? How many spheres covered by water and dirt are there, except Earth?"

And for some reason, I keep thinking that Benvovsky could be Jewish.

Also, a question: Did you decide on a color for Societism already? Because I keep wondering: Black isn't the best color, being associated with death and funerals in Europe; but for the same reason, white isn't optimal either...

“When entrusted with the reins of state power, each class will exercise them differently according to the different values they live their lives by.

The aristocrat sees a greater picture. He has a sense of history and a broader perspective on the future. He might have grown up in several estates owned by his family and owes no particular allegiance to any geographic place. His rivalries with others are based on individual personalities, not something defined by geographic proximity: his conflicts are fought in a conceptual, nebulous sphere such as hierarchy within a court or jockeying for position in the world of business. One could not predict by a mathematical model whom a given aristocrat might have a conflict with. But the aristocrat may also view his rivalry as a harmless chess game, while dismissing the fact that the ‘pawns’ he and his rival are playing with are real human beings for whom the war is terribly real.

The bourgeois naturally has narrower horizons, more focused on a particular region such as that mistakenly defined as a nation. Nonetheless his rivalries are also predominantly personal in nature: geographic proximity may come in, but expressed in a personal way, such as arguing with his neighbour over the precise position of the border between their properties. This, of course, is manifested on a broader and more terrible scale when the bourgeois is granted state power and transfers the rivalry to one between ‘nations’. The bourgeois also has a sense of history, but a narrower one, and is more willing to manipulate that history to favour his own short-term ends. However, he is also more open-minded than the aristocrat in that he is better able to appreciate the idea of new horizons being opened, and the world he sees not being all that exists: he is not used to living in the aristocrat’s static world. He often lets his rivalries simmer as bitter grudges rather than fighting them out in the open, but they can explode without warning.

The proletarian is focused on his own individual life, yet paradoxically his rivalries are predominantly communitarian in nature: he will reflexively identify with a category such as nation, family, race, region or even street in order to contest with another in order to establish an imaginary sense of ‘superiority’. The proletarian is focused on the ‘now’ and does not plan for the long-term future, indeed in one sense he does not perceive that a long-term future really exists. Because of this he often does not think through the consequences of his actions, and views every individual struggle as being world-changing, failing to realise that it is only one of many similar petty conflicts that happened prior to his birth. Being willing to fight hard for power, he is then all too eager to disclaim it and blame the other classes when something goes wrong. The best thing that can be said about him is that his very ignorance of history can also be turned to advantage—it can make him something of a tabula rasa when one seeks to sweep away the damaging old ideas of the past...”

–Pablo Sanchez, Unity Through Society (1841)​

Thank you.


"The Terraqueous Globe" is a common 18th century poetic phrase for the Earth. It's mainly associated with a quote from Voltaire who used it, but I believe it predates that.


It's black. It's not as if the association with death has ever stopped OTL anarchists (or the CDU in Germany). The reasons behind this will be covered in a future update: suffice to say that it wasn't Sanchez who chose the colour.

I agree with Mr. Sinister, I have no idea how you keep a timeline this vast going over so many years. (Given that all of my timelines die within a few updates at most )

Looking at the latest Sanchez quote, I'm actually very confused about what Societism really is. I suppose this is a good thing, far too many 'alternate' ideologies are just fascism or communism with different symbolism and names. The one thing that has remained consistent is that it doesn't hold any form of self identification to be valid except for as a member of humanity, which consequently it is aggressively anti-nationalist and anti-religious (of the Stalin type most probably). From that excerpt I can sort of see that there is some sort of cast system envisaged by Sanchez with class being more entrenched in a Societist 'state' than in neutral or Diversertarian ideologies.

One thing I find particularly interesting is that both Societism and Diversertarianism would probably find OTL religious extremism to be even more evil than we do. For the Societists, religious extremism is an attempt to create an identity other than class and/or humanity, while the Diversertarians would be downright horrified at the destruction of Malian culture and the relentless quest for a one world order.

Keep up the good work.

teg

teg

 

[Max Sinister]

"The Terraqueous Globe" is a common 18th century poetic phrase for the Earth. It's mainly associated with a quote from Voltaire who used it, but I believe it predates that.

Oh, I definitely wasn't aware of that.

It's black. It's not as if the association with death has ever stopped OTL anarchists (or the CDU in Germany).

The CDU (and the Zentrum party before) used black because it's the color of clerical clothing.

 

[Thande]

The CDU (and the Zentrum party before) used black because it's the color of clerical clothing.

I know, but I meant that people don't see the association of black with death as being the only possible meaning of black--as with this case, it can mean other things too.

I should clarify that Societism is not as anti-religious as some people seem to think--this is my fault for using the "Imagine" lyrics as the frontispiece for this volume and not finding a way to get around that bit. Societism's view of religion is a bit like how Imperial Russia used the Orthodox Church or 18th century Britain used the Anglican Church--it exists but it becomes such an 'arm of the state' that the actual religious bit is sometimes lost. More detail later of course...

 

[othyrsyde]

Thanks everyone--I find these discussions useful because they give me new ideas. I was already planning an update about an alternative development of 'penny dreadful' (in OTL Britain, AKA dime novel in the OTL USA) style fiction in the ENA, but you've pointed out that Populist Britain could also be a rich catalyst for that.

Glad to help

And my project should be done after Valentines Day. I might see if I can get it done sooner, since I'll be gone on a magical weekend of romance, but it's unlikely.

 

[Beedok]

Maybe in LTTW, "pizza ninja" is an action movie genre like OTL "spaghetti westerns." (With Italy doubling for parts of Central Asia, perhaps?)

Sounds fun, but does pizza predate the POD?

 

[wolf_brother]

Sounds fun, but does pizza predate the POD?

According to Wikipedia it dates to at least the 16th century, if not even older, though it seems to have been more like a flatbread pie with olives, tomatoes, and fish, and was seen as lower class.