Look to the West: Thread III, Volume IV (Tottenham Nil)!
- Thread starter Thande
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wolf_brother
Banned
In regards to colors let's remember that red wasn't the go-to default color of the far left until after the Paris Commune. Even in 1848 while French radicals were clamoring for the Second Republic to adopt the bloody flag, German radicals were flying banners of green.
Thande
Donor
I don't see that's relevant to what we're talking about, but in any case it's different in TTL because the French Revolution adopted the bloody flag (as some wanted in OTL) rather than a tricolour and thus popularised it early on, aided and abetted by the Solidaridad/Colorados in the UPSA which ultimately defined the major political colour spectrum of TTL as yellow conservatives, white centrists and red radicals in the mid-19th century.
wolf_brother
Banned
I only meant that when we're talking about colors and speculating about which faction would adopt what symbolism, we need to also understand that it's not going to happen all at once or apply universally. I'm sure many Societists would use colors other than black, at least early on, so the rainbow Diversitarian would be a latter development. iirc we've seen lots of 'name dropping' references to either faction, but, contextually, these seem to be academic references to proto-Societists or proto-Diversitarians. Again, iirc, I don't think we've seen ITTL's Paris Commune or the like, so, for a while at least, there's no universal standard. The speculation is getting a quite bit ahead of the actual text. Just my two cents.
Thande
Donor
Ah, I see your point now, and it is well founded--as you say, it's a gradual thing and this will be covered in the aforementioned future interlude. Similar to what we've already seen with how the 'Asterisk of Liberty' symbol for British Populism came from an unrelated Irish Solidarity flag done in tyrine purple that gradually became an asterisk due to sketchier versions done in a hurry or amateurishly.
Hey, in the Windmill Marshall Plan poster from OTL shown in Post 259, what is that white fleur-de-lis on blue field flag shown on the blade between the Italian and German flags?
I can recognize and name every other flag in the picture but that one looks like it slipped in from some alt-reality. Is it for the French possessions taken from Germany (The Saar?) or what? (It's not the Saar Protectorate by the way, not according to the flag and seal shown on the Wikipedia page anyhow).
It looks like the flag of an alternate, independent nation of Quebec to me. That makes no sense whatsoever in context.
I can recognize and name every other flag in the picture but that one looks like it slipped in from some alt-reality. Is it for the French possessions taken from Germany (The Saar?) or what? (It's not the Saar Protectorate by the way, not according to the flag and seal shown on the Wikipedia page anyhow).
It looks like the flag of an alternate, independent nation of Quebec to me. That makes no sense whatsoever in context.
I would have to agree that one of my favorite parts of LttW is that it manages (at least in my opinion) the absurdity of history very well. A Hungarian expat, working for Lithuanians and Russians out in the Far East, gets homesick and that leads him to help the descendants of his former homeland in Africa...all because he's bored? The believability comes from how out of left field the concept is. It's very strange to consider how much the world is predicated upon people doing exactly the right thing at a certain time that made things up the way they have.
I was wondering what sort of symbolism that the Diversitarians and Societists would end up using. Black and white are good choices. Personally, I prefer the updated version of the second flag. I think the first flag is rather gaudy.
The Russian push into eastern Africa/Ethiopia (or at least, attempts to) is going to be pretty fascinating. It brings up a good question, though: how, exactly, are the Russians going to view their new colonial subjects? I'd imagine that the Hawaiians are viewed in fairly neutral terms, being vassals, while the Yaponese might be looked down upon in some quarters now and eventually as 'backwards.' But Russian contact with Africa seems like it could be a strange crossroads. As was pointed out in the update, Russia did view Ethiopia with a strange sort of respect. I guess what I'm trying to ask is if Russian treatment of the natives will be somewhat 'better' than some of their contemporary counterparts elsewhere?
I'm also curious as to how Coreans, Yaponese and Chinese immigrants are going to shape Erythrea. Socially speaking, if there's any sort of 'hierarchy' at all, where would they be placed?
I was wondering what sort of symbolism that the Diversitarians and Societists would end up using. Black and white are good choices. Personally, I prefer the updated version of the second flag. I think the first flag is rather gaudy.
The Russian push into eastern Africa/Ethiopia (or at least, attempts to) is going to be pretty fascinating. It brings up a good question, though: how, exactly, are the Russians going to view their new colonial subjects? I'd imagine that the Hawaiians are viewed in fairly neutral terms, being vassals, while the Yaponese might be looked down upon in some quarters now and eventually as 'backwards.' But Russian contact with Africa seems like it could be a strange crossroads. As was pointed out in the update, Russia did view Ethiopia with a strange sort of respect. I guess what I'm trying to ask is if Russian treatment of the natives will be somewhat 'better' than some of their contemporary counterparts elsewhere?
I'm also curious as to how Coreans, Yaponese and Chinese immigrants are going to shape Erythrea. Socially speaking, if there's any sort of 'hierarchy' at all, where would they be placed?
wolf_brother
Banned
It's the Free Territory of Trieste using UN blue instead of the traditional red since it was technically a UN protectorate, though de-facto the southern half was under Yugoslave occupation and the northern half was governed by the US military. It was supposed to be a independent buffer state between Italy and Yugoslavia, but Stalin's Soviet Union, as one of the allies and founding members of the UN, kept vetoing the Western-backed proposals for a governor to transition the territory from a military district to an independent state, and after the fall-out between Stalin and Tito and Stalin's subsequent death it was finally divided between Italy and Yugoslavia along the lines of which military was governing where. It's why modern Italy has Trieste & modern Slovenia has a coastline at all. </threadjacking>
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I think its inevitable that the Diversatarians would adopt the rainbow as their 'standard', while the Societists would adopt a single colour as their's (probably a primary colour or black or white). Two things actually interest me about the Societists/UPSA:
i) If Societists takeover more than one country (particularly widely spaced countries), is possible we could see a split in the Societist world order (e.g., a Hapsburg Combine, an Indian Combine, a Chinese Combine), all of which claim to be the rightful Combine.
ii) Will Societism take power during Sanchez's lifetime or will be someone else who seizes control? It is implied in Update 150 that Sanchez is the man who destroys the UPSA, but on the other hand that could easily refer to his actions inspiring the people who will destroy the UPSA and would just tie into the "Sanchez is Lucifer" narrative that has become de rigeur in the Diverse world.
On another point, I'm assuming that the world isn't completely divided into Societist and Diversertarian blocs and that there are genuine neutrals who either are ideologically neutral or are only loosely connected to one side.
teg
i) If Societists takeover more than one country (particularly widely spaced countries), is possible we could see a split in the Societist world order (e.g., a Hapsburg Combine, an Indian Combine, a Chinese Combine), all of which claim to be the rightful Combine.
ii) Will Societism take power during Sanchez's lifetime or will be someone else who seizes control? It is implied in Update 150 that Sanchez is the man who destroys the UPSA, but on the other hand that could easily refer to his actions inspiring the people who will destroy the UPSA and would just tie into the "Sanchez is Lucifer" narrative that has become de rigeur in the Diverse world.
On another point, I'm assuming that the world isn't completely divided into Societist and Diversertarian blocs and that there are genuine neutrals who either are ideologically neutral or are only loosely connected to one side.
teg
This was GREAT. I know you don't care for anime Thande, but I could sooo see Benyovsky cutting down that guy with his katana in one. Picturing him leading an army of samurai, ninjas, and various other nationalities in a Quixotesque adventure across Africa deserves to be captured in an anime or at the very least a comic book/graphic novel.
Plus, the Magyarab are awesome, and REAL. Never knew of such a group existed. Though looking at the history of invasions and pushing people around, it makes sense. It also makes me happy they exist with my love of mixed cultures.
Overall though, you do a great job of not only showing the big waves of history that move across the globe like tsunamis, but also bringing it down to the human level to see the folks on the ground making these movements happen. Yet LTTW also keeps it from becoming too much of 'Great Man of History". It's one of the great strengths of this TL. Excellent work and one of the inspirations for my own (though I keep having to change things in mine, thinking this sick and original idea all came out of my brain...and then it's in your next update
).
Plus, the Magyarab are awesome, and REAL. Never knew of such a group existed. Though looking at the history of invasions and pushing people around, it makes sense. It also makes me happy they exist with my love of mixed cultures.
Overall though, you do a great job of not only showing the big waves of history that move across the globe like tsunamis, but also bringing it down to the human level to see the folks on the ground making these movements happen. Yet LTTW also keeps it from becoming too much of 'Great Man of History". It's one of the great strengths of this TL. Excellent work and one of the inspirations for my own (though I keep having to change things in mine, thinking this sick and original idea all came out of my brain...and then it's in your next update
).
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Lost the game
Banned
A little-known fact about Diversitarians is that they were the ones who invented online-photo sharing and editing
Edit: The Picasa logo, for those who don't recognize it
I think this is implied from an earlier posts which mentions "societist powers", which, naturaly, the societists deny publically. My guess is that they hate each other about as much as they hate the diversitarians.
It would have to be shown three times, from three slightly different angles, though.
Personally, I think it would make more sense to cover the easier-to-forget parts, like West Africa, before returning to places like the UPSA and the ENA, which often need multi-update series to cover wars, elections, cultural development, etc.
Btw, KotB?
I think this is implied from an earlier posts which mentions "societist powers", which, naturaly, the societists deny publically. My guess is that they hate each other about as much as they hate the diversitarians.
Really? Because I'd say that the various Societist powers all CLAIM to be one nation--or precisely one Society--and insist that Diversitan statements to the contrary are all signs of their national-blindness which causes them to see disunity where none exists, make much of minor differences, but they will learn the truth when the Society triumphs, as it inevitably will, etc. etc. etc.
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