Longer Lasting Pacific War Pods

For those postulating a European PoD for longer Pacific war, how about Italian East Africa surviving until 1942? Or even better have a route from Italian Libya to Italian Somaliland open for a while.

As for the Japanese themselves I think one glaring omission would be the lack of submarine warfare. If they had launched sub warfare on the US west coast and around Hawaii at the very beginning they could have knocked the US down a bit further. The US would have to put effort into merchant ship building and escorts at the very beginnning and this would have delayed the offensive buildups of late 1942 and slowed the schedule for the war afterwards.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
For those postulating a European PoD for longer Pacific war, how about Italian East Africa surviving until 1942? Or even better have a route from Italian Libya to Italian Somaliland open for a while.

As for the Japanese themselves I think one glaring omission would be the lack of submarine warfare. If they had launched sub warfare on the US west coast and around Hawaii at the very beginning they could have knocked the US down a bit further. The US would have to put effort into merchant ship building and escorts at the very beginnning and this would have delayed the offensive buildups of late 1942 and slowed the schedule for the war afterwards.


Can you give more details on how you see Italian EA helping Japan?

And yes, better use of submarines slows down the USA in many small ways.
 
I see that a few others have brought up one of the points I'd meant to earlier, use of IJN subs against Allied merchant shipping instead of just warships. That would certainly have slowed the advance down, maybe even requiring escorts be sent to the Pacific instead of the Atlantic with all the repercussions that entails.

Yes, getting the IJA and IJN to cooperate _is_ ASB, but it is necessary if Japan wants to do better. Perhaps the Emperor can be a bit more persuasive without getting assassinated.

Two other ideas...

1) More carriers. Yes, it means the battleship admirals have to be voted down and this is most unlikely. But even 2-3 additional CVL's at war's start (with a few more in the pipeline) would be a great help.

2) More pilots. Japan had a corps of elite pilots but at a huge cost; out of a pool of 100 candidates only 2-3 at most would be accepted, sometimes only one! The standards _have_ to be lowered somewhat so more pilots and aircrew make it through training. Not quite as an elite force but more pilots available at war's start again will be of immense value.

More planes will obviously be needed, this leads to the problem of where the resources and fuel will come from...
 
Can you give more details on how you see Italian EA helping Japan?

And yes, better use of submarines slows down the USA in many small ways.

If I.E.A. was in Axis hands in early 1942 it can provide a jumping off point for a blockade running operation in the Indian Ocean to the Japanese controlled areas in Burma and D.E.I. Perhaps the Japanese can export rubber and tin and import high technology. Whatever the details it is a link between allies one of whose major failings was a lack of cooperation.

In the purely military sphere perhaps IJN ships, subs and planes can conduct patrols starting in Sumatra and ending in Somalia and then do the reverse. This is what the Germans did with the Fw200 Condor flights, starting in Norway, sweeping out into the Atlantic and ending in France.
 
This requires two things: an understanding of the limits on existing logistic capacity, & an understanding of the threat from submarines.

Japanese leadership had neither.:rolleyes:
The reason that Militarst Japan didn't have enough transport ships (other than the fact that their economy was far too small to allow them to build up everything they needed or wanted) was because the "short war" school won in the 1920's. There was a big debate in the interwar period between those who argued that any future war that the Empire of Japan found itself in would be long and industrialized, and those who argued it would be short. The "long war" side argued that Japan should build up transport facilities, industrial capacity, and resource stockpiles, and pay for all of these by having a significantly smaller standing army. Then, if and when war came, it would be easy enough to quickly build up the military through calling up reservists and conscription. The "short war" side argued that long wars like the World War were unlikely, given Japan's likely enemies, and that at any rate if the Empire did fight a long war it would be beaten anyway. They argued for the need to keep large numbers of troops under arms at all times, for quick decisive action.

Of course, in OTL the "short war" side won. There are many reasons for this: it played into the ultranationalist/mysticalist notions of the primacy of elan, the zaibatsu tended to support it because it lead to higher military spending and less government control over production in the short run, some civilian leaders supported it because a larger army helped keep down the numbers of unemployed young men. But by far the most important single reason was political. The Militarists knew that their power base lay in radicalizing the rural poor. The more soldiers they had under arms, the more support they had for Militarist policies, simple as that. Before the complete takeover of the government by the Militarists, when the Army was just one power block among many, this was their overriding concern. Of course, when the Army was able to push this through, the Navy had no choice to join the "short war" side, too. If they did not expand their numbers at the same time, they would risk being rode roughshod by the Army. Building more warships adds to their numbers and power, building transport ships does not.

The bottom line is this: your idea that the Empire of Japan didn't build transports because they didn't think logistics were important is a gross oversimplification. The lack of sealift capacity was an unintended (but forseen) consequence of the strange political realities on the ground in 1927-1945 Empire of Japan. It is not impossible, or even implausible, to design a PoD or two that would change this, allowing Japan to build much more transport ships.
Forget ideology. This was an IJN doctrine issue, & was symptomatic of the grip Mahan had on all major navies prewar: namely, guerre de course couldn't win a war, only battle between gunlines. IJN bought it.

Unless you change that, you don't change the number of DDs built.

You then have to overcome the incapacity to grasp the need for better sealift & better trade protection... And you need officers who know the difference between tactical & strategic victory. Japan didn't have them.

In short, you need better educated senior officers going back at least 20yr.
You just need the "long war" school to win the debate. They believed in a decisive battle because that's how the short war would go. "guerre de course" is a long war strategy. If the long war is planned for, it will be included.
So why didn't they OTL?:confused::confused:
Because it didn't effect them. It's easy to ignore the effects of a blockade if it only happens to someone else. That's why my suggested PoD was for a Imperial German commerce raider to target Japanese ships in WWI. If the Empire of Japan faces this issue itself, then of course they will pay more attention to it. That gives them a reason to look at how other Powers have been affected by this issue (including Great Britain's experience with subs), and the responses they have developed to it.

That seems to require more engineering depth than Japan had...
Turbosuperchargers require more "engineering depth" than the Empire of Japan had?

In 1945, the Empire of Japan had lost huge chunks of their industrial capacity to bombing. The factories that were still able to produce couldn't, because the power grid was damaged. If they had power, the destruction to the transportation grid made it nearly impossible to bring in coal and ship out steel, etc. Despite all of this, they were still able to produce a working jet engine based on nothing more than a few German photos and a cut-away diagram. The Kikka flew before the war ended.

Given all of that, I think they could manage to built a workable turbosupercharger back when their industrial base was intact, given that they captured several Allied planes equipped with them. After all, what is a jet engine except an incredibly advanced and complex turbine?

As to why they didn't manage to historically, who knows? Why were the Americans able to engineer and produce the incredibly advanced B-29, but still couldn't produce a good enough engine to drive the Mustang without just copying a British design?
These are all changes that require 747-size butterflies by 1940, or changes going back a generation or more.:eek::eek: They look small to us, 'cause in the West, we did it. Japan didn't, because she couldn't.
This would be big PoDs by 1940, yes (except the turbosuperchargers). That's why you may notice that one of my PoDs was in the mid-1920's, and the other one was in 1914.
Not a chance. Japan couldn't have survived past mid-1946, not with mass famine on the doorstep. And "the lives of nearly an entire nation" is nonsense. It's Truman's justification of the needless use of the Bomb.
For once, I agree with you. The whole idea that "if not for the bomb, it would have meant invasion" is just an idea promoted to make the strategic bombing look modest and reasonable. If the bombs had not been ready, then the Empire of Japan is most likely starved into submission before the end of 1945. The dropping on sea mines into inland Japanese waterways and canals almost guaranteed starvation by itself, since it blocked the last remaining way for the Empire of Japan to move food from the countryside to the cities. The bombs might have actually killed fewever people than would have starved that winter, it's hard to say. But there would never have been an invasion.
 
Riain said:
For those postulating a European PoD for longer Pacific war, how about Italian East Africa surviving until 1942? Or even better have a route from Italian Libya to Italian Somaliland open for a while.
That sounds really interesting, if it can be done.
Riain said:
As for the Japanese themselves I think one glaring omission would be the lack of submarine warfare. If they had launched sub warfare on the US west coast and around Hawaii at the very beginning they could have knocked the US down a bit further. The US would have to put effort into merchant ship building and escorts at the very beginnning and this would have delayed the offensive buildups of late 1942 and slowed the schedule for the war afterwards.
This really needs a change in IJN doctrine away from Mahan, & that needs a change in virtually every major navy, since Mahan was gospel. If you could make it happen, it'd make the Pacific War much harder for the U.S. (Just keeping Hawaii supplied becomes nightmarish.:eek:)

Even surface raiders would have made for serious impact.

eltf177 said:
More pilots. Japan had a corps of elite pilots but at a huge cost; out of a pool of 100 candidates only 2-3 at most would be accepted, sometimes only one! The standards _have_ to be lowered somewhat so more pilots and aircrew make it through training. Not quite as an elite force but more pilots available at war's start again will be of immense value.

More planes will obviously be needed, this leads to the problem of where the resources and fuel will come from...
Better aircrew protection would help a lot, so armor & self-sealing tanks. Which requires a change in design philosophy... Did Japan also need to change her rotation policy? That is, did she leave the fliers in until they were killed, as Germany did?

More planes helps, but something as simple as a change in training (or something) so ground crews will cannibalize when spares don't arrive would be really helpful. (Captured airbases in SWP often had numerous aircraft sitting on them missing just one critical part--which others on the field had.:confused:)
mcdo said:
The reason that Militarst Japan didn't have enough transport ships (other than the fact that their economy was far too small to allow them to build up everything they needed or wanted) was because the "short war" school won in the 1920's. There was a big debate in the interwar period between those who argued that any future war that the Empire of Japan found itself in would be long and industrialized, and those who argued it would be short. The "long war" side argued that Japan should build up transport facilities, industrial capacity, and resource stockpiles, and pay for all of these by having a significantly smaller standing army. Then, if and when war came, it would be easy enough to quickly build up the military through calling up reservists and conscription. The "short war" side argued that long wars like the World War were unlikely, given Japan's likely enemies, and that at any rate if the Empire did fight a long war it would be beaten anyway. They argued for the need to keep large numbers of troops under arms at all times, for quick decisive action.

Of course, in OTL the "short war" side won. There are many reasons for this: it played into the ultranationalist/mysticalist notions of the primacy of elan, the zaibatsu tended to support it because it lead to higher military spending and less government control over production in the short run, some civilian leaders supported it because a larger army helped keep down the numbers of unemployed young men. But by far the most important single reason was political. The Militarists knew that their power base lay in radicalizing the rural poor. The more soldiers they had under arms, the more support they had for Militarist policies, simple as that. Before the complete takeover of the government by the Militarists, when the Army was just one power block among many, this was their overriding concern. Of course, when the Army was able to push this through, the Navy had no choice to join the "short war" side, too. If they did not expand their numbers at the same time, they would risk being rode roughshod by the Army. Building more warships adds to their numbers and power, building transport ships does not.
That explains a lot. Thx. It's also, I see, the same argument the Germans used... The "short war" faction also, I see, displays a complete lack of understanding of their potential enemies.:rolleyes:
mcdo said:
that the Empire of Japan didn't build transports because they didn't think logistics were important is a gross oversimplification. The lack of sealift capacity was an unintended (but forseen) consequence of the strange political realities on the ground in 1927-1945 Empire of Japan.
Some of it was out of my own ignorance, I grant.:eek: I maintain, the "short war" position, by ignoring the prospects of their being wrong, didn't think logistics were important. Either way, giving inadequate attention to ASW is ignoring the importance. (Yes, it wouldn't have bit them if the "short war" faction had been right.)
mcdo said:
It is not impossible, or even implausible, to design a PoD or two that would change this, allowing Japan to build much more transport ships.
You just need the "long war" school to win the debate. They believed in a decisive battle because that's how the short war would go. "guerre de course" is a long war strategy. If the long war is planned for, it will be included.
I'll agree with that. Except to say the "decisive battle", as I understand it, is a doctrinal (& so separate) issue, not one over short or long war.
mcdo said:
Because it didn't effect them. It's easy to ignore the effects of a blockade if it only happens to someone else. That's why my suggested PoD was for a Imperial German commerce raider to target Japanese ships in WWI. If the Empire of Japan faces this issue itself, then of course they will pay more attention to it.
Which comes back to my proposition senior officers were incompetently educated & trained. IMO, a navy without adequate technical means to defend trade has no business
mcdo said:
Turbosuperchargers require more "engineering depth" than the Empire of Japan had?
Because of the difficulty of producing the materials & of precision machining. This is sophisticated stuff. I don't say impossible for Japan, just damned difficult, & Japan was having trouble with developing aircraft engines over 1000hp by 1940. Turbos in peacetime by 1945, maybe; in wartime, no.
mcdo said:
back when their industrial base was intact, given that they captured several Allied planes equipped with them. After all, what is a jet engine except an incredibly advanced and complex turbine?
That I won't disagree with.
mcdo said:
couldn't produce a good enough engine to drive the Mustang without just copying a British design?
Couldn't? Or just "didn't"?
mcdo said:
This would be big PoDs by 1940
Maybe my wording is fuzzy... I mean to say, the impact by 1940 would be huge.
mcdo said:
For once, I agree with you. The whole idea that "if not for the bomb, it would have meant invasion" is just an idea promoted to make the strategic bombing look modest and reasonable. If the bombs had not been ready, then the Empire of Japan is most likely starved into submission before the end of 1945. The dropping on sea mines into inland Japanese waterways and canals almost guaranteed starvation by itself, since it blocked the last remaining way for the Empire of Japan to move food from the countryside to the cities. The bombs might have actually killed fewever people than would have starved that winter, it's hard to say. But there would never have been an invasion.
Maybe. There's also the proposition it was actually the Soviet declaration of war that brought an end to the war.
 
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