Long Live Sacred Germany: The Oster Conspiracy | Alternate Timeline

Should I continue and develop this into a full timeline?


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All this talk about the USSR leaves out the fact that, IIRC, nothing has yet been said about what the USSR is doing in this timeline.

Not to mention that it seems like a diversion to insist on talking about "how horrible OTL USSR was" when originally discussing whether Sancaja Poland TTL is going to make a stupid decision or not.

But since the topic comes up, what is the USSR doing TTL? I'll assume something quite similar to OTL because there hasn't been time for any big change to happen yet.

Are there still Wehrmacht troops training in the USSR? I can imagine that's a serious problem, since now the USSR has a bunch of German soldiers stranded on its territory while Germany itself is teetering on the brink of civil war.
You are right, I will include a Stalin POV next chapter.

As for what they're doing, they'd be publicly supporting the Osterists while trying to revive the KDP. Also probably warning Poland against intervention since they don't trust the Poles to leave German lands they take.
 
Had a few questions to ask for some feedback:

1. Who do you think is a logical choice for a head of state of the German Republic? Most of the conspirators are either military men or aristocrats, no real obvious choices among them.
2. For people who speak German, does 'Reichsprotektor' make any sense for an officious title of a head of state? (grammarwise/how it sounds)
3. Does anyone have much information on the atmosphere around Lithuania/Poland? (Because information is kind of scarce.) What I'm asking for is, how much desire is there on the Lithuanian side for taking Vilnius, how strong are the pro-Nazi and pro-Communist movements in Lithuania, how much desire/hope/realistic planning is on the Polish side for 'reunification' with Lithuania? Is the concept of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth even considered on either side?
 
Had a few questions to ask for some feedback:

1. Who do you think is a logical choice for a head of state of the German Republic? Most of the conspirators are either military men or aristocrats, no real obvious choices among them.
2. For people who speak German, does 'Reichsprotektor' make any sense for an officious title of a head of state? (grammarwise/how it sounds)
3. Does anyone have much information on the atmosphere around Lithuania/Poland? (Because information is kind of scarce.) What I'm asking for is, how much desire is there on the Lithuanian side for taking Vilnius, how strong are the pro-Nazi and pro-Communist movements in Lithuania, how much desire/hope/realistic planning is on the Polish side for 'reunification' with Lithuania? Is the concept of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth even considered on either side?
Well the conspirators planned to have crown prince Wilhelm as Reichsregent (Monarchy, without directly calling it a monarchy), but if that fails, Ludwig Beck as Reichsverweser (Basically Horthy's title) would make sense.
 
Had a few questions to ask for some feedback:

1. Who do you think is a logical choice for a head of state of the German Republic? Most of the conspirators are either military men or aristocrats, no real obvious choices among them.
2. For people who speak German, does 'Reichsprotektor' make any sense for an officious title of a head of state? (grammarwise/how it sounds)
3. Does anyone have much information on the atmosphere around Lithuania/Poland? (Because information is kind of scarce.) What I'm asking for is, how much desire is there on the Lithuanian side for taking Vilnius, how strong are the pro-Nazi and pro-Communist movements in Lithuania, how much desire/hope/realistic planning is on the Polish side for 'reunification' with Lithuania? Is the concept of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth even considered on either side?
1. The most likely thing is that the military and aristocrats will end up choosing a candidate by default. Someone who is not immediately perceived as a threat to anyone's power, who was not part of the Nazi cadres, and whom no one has any particular animosity against... now it would be funny if Karl Doenitz or Konrad Adenauer ended up in this position simply because there was no one better available XD.

2. Personally, I think Reichsprotektor is a terrible choice because it is the title Heydrich adopted when he was put in charge of Czechoslovakia, so surely the term already appears in the documents of the Nazi plans for Czechoslovakia. I think perhaps something like Statthalter or even some resurrected German title would be better, marking at the same time the continuity and restoration of the pre-Hitler order...
 
Had a few questions to ask for some feedback:

1. Who do you think is a logical choice for a head of state of the German Republic? Most of the conspirators are either military men or aristocrats, no real obvious choices among them.
2. For people who speak German, does 'Reichsprotektor' make any sense for an officious title of a head of state? (grammarwise/how it sounds)
3. Does anyone have much information on the atmosphere around Lithuania/Poland? (Because information is kind of scarce.) What I'm asking for is, how much desire is there on the Lithuanian side for taking Vilnius, how strong are the pro-Nazi and pro-Communist movements in Lithuania, how much desire/hope/realistic planning is on the Polish side for 'reunification' with Lithuania? Is the concept of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth even considered on either side?
3. From what I've read, the Sanacja government was strict on creating Polish ethnostate. There were even plans for getting rid of the jewish minority (like exale or integrate them). So there was no plans in bringing more non-polish ethinics into Poland. Only Pilsudsky was kind of proponent of the idea of reforming commonwealth but after the post-WW1 wars, when was the polsih border finalised. Also there was kind of power struggle between pro-German part of the government (represented by Ludwig Beck, creator of the Polish-German non-agression pact) and pro-western camp represented by the president Sikorsky. Before the Munich agreement, there were a correspondence between czechoslovak and polish presidents about polish envolvement against Germany. Sikorsky wrote something like "we are ready to militarily engage should be the CSR attacked" and CS president Beneš wrote back "there will be no war without envolvement of the French". There is some debate, if Sikorsky would be in a position in his government strong enough to push this through, however it shows dedication of at least some polish higher ranking politicians to uphold the status quo.

Edit: not Sikorski, but Moscinski.
 
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3. From what I've read, the Sanacja government was strict on creating Polish ethnostate. There were even plans for getting rid of the jewish minority (like exale or integrate them). So there was no plans in bringing more non-polish ethinics into Poland. Only Pilsudsky was kind of proponent of the idea of reforming commonwealth but after the post-WW1 wars, when was the polsih border finalised. Also there was kind of power struggle between pro-German part of the government (represented by Ludwig Beck, creator of the Polish-German non-agression pact) and pro-western camp represented by the president Sikorsky. Before the Munich agreement, there were a correspondence between czechoslovak and polish presidents about polish envolvement against Germany. Sikorsky wrote something like "we are ready to militarily engage should be the CSR attacked" and CS president Beneš wrote back "there will be no war without envolvement of the French". There is some debate, if Sikorsky would be in a position in his government strong enough to push this through, however it shows dedication of at least some polish higher ranking politicians to uphold the status quo.
Sikorski wasn't a member of Sanacja, he probably said so when he was a polish Prime Minister in 1922-1923 before Sanacja's coup. When Sanacja took power, Sanacja started removing from the important positions those who weren't fully loyal to Piłsudski. After Stalin invaded Poland the Sanacja leaders evacuated themselves with the remnants of the polish armies to Romania, and although Romania quietly allowed the polish troops to pass through Romania to France, Sanacja government itself was interned by Romania who wanted to look neutral. That's how Sanacja was out of the game, and how Sikorski could be appointed as the leader of the polish government-in-exile.

When it comes to Sanacja's ethnic policies, Piłsudski wanted the state assimilation, meaning that he respects the ethnic background and that he only wants the loyalty to the state. He basically believed that the nationalist policies respresented by his main ideological rival, Roman Dmowski, are spoiling the relations with the minorities. But then in 1935 Piłsudski died, and his successors started kinda mimicking the policies of Dmowski, despite continuing to exclude Dmowski's men from the government.


@Sphinx
As for Lithuania, in April 1919 the polish armies pushed the Soviets out of the Vilnius Region, and on 22 April 1919 Piłsudski announced the tetralingual proclamation to the inhabitants of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, de facto announcing that he wants to restore that former state as a fusion of nowadays Lithuania and nowadays Belarus.
166-112605_g.jpg

The declaration however, was met with suspicion from the Baltic Lithuanians who believed it to be a hidden attempt for the polonisation, and they refused to join the project. Therefore Piłsudski tried to organise in August-September 1919 the pro-polish coup in the Republic of Lithuania, but the conspirators were discovered and arrested. After that, Piłsudski kinda gave up on Baltic Lithuania and decided to enjoy at least the control over the polish-speaking Vilnius Region. Later on, as mentioned, in 1920 the bolsheviks made the offensive on Warsaw and alongside their offensive they captured the Vilnius Region and gave it to Lithuania in exchange for Lithuania's logistical support against Poland during the soviet offensive on Warsaw. After the soviet failures in the battle of Warsaw and in the battle of Niemen River, Piłsudski secretly gathered these polish regiments which were composed of the polish Lithuanians, and he ordered them to usurp the desertion and to recapture the Vilnius Region as the deserters who supposedly act on their own - the so called Żeligowski's Mutiny. These "deserters" succeeded and created the so called Republic of Central Lithuania, annexed by Poland in 1922.

Lithuania refused to accept the polish annexation of the Vilnius Region and claimed that Vilnius is still a capital of Lithuania. The lithuanian government refused to establish any diplomatic relations with Poland and claimed that Lithuania is still at the state of war against Poland. After the end of Żeligowski's Mutiny there weren't any military fights anymore, but occasionally there were some minor border incidents resulting in the deaths of few soldiers. Additionally Lithuania discriminated the Poles living within Lithuania. Poland offered Lithuania the establishment of diplomatic relations several times, but Lithuania declined every time. Basically this whole situation of "No peace, but no fights either" lasted until March 1938, when Poland threw an ultimatum to Lithuania with the demand to finally accept the polish control over Vilnius and to establish the diplomatic relations with Poland, or else Poland will invade Lithuania. Lithuania accepted this ultimatum, and only then the relations were established. And only then the lithuanian leader, Antanas Smetona, agreed to officially announce that the capital of Lithuania is not Vilnius but Kaunas (de facto having been functioning as the capital since the loss of Vilnius). Anyway, in 1939 the III Reich offered the Lithuanians that Lithuania could join Germany in the invasion of Poland to retake the Vilnius Region, but Lithuania refused. A significant factor could be the fact that at that point Lithuania had just lost to the III Reich the Klaipėda Region, an important port whose loss was very painful for the lithuanian economy.
 
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Apologies, I somehow missed these messages! Thanks for the replies.
Well the conspirators planned to have crown prince Wilhelm as Reichsregent (Monarchy, without directly calling it a monarchy), but if that fails, Ludwig Beck as Reichsverweser (Basically Horthy's title) would make sense.
From my understanding, there was little desire for a return of the monarchy. I will look into Ludwig Beck.
1. The most likely thing is that the military and aristocrats will end up choosing a candidate by default. Someone who is not immediately perceived as a threat to anyone's power, who was not part of the Nazi cadres, and whom no one has any particular animosity against... now it would be funny if Karl Doenitz or Konrad Adenauer ended up in this position simply because there was no one better available XD.

2. Personally, I think Reichsprotektor is a terrible choice because it is the title Heydrich adopted when he was put in charge of Czechoslovakia, so surely the term already appears in the documents of the Nazi plans for Czechoslovakia. I think perhaps something like Statthalter or even some resurrected German title would be better, marking at the same time the continuity and restoration of the pre-Hitler order...
1. Yeah, I'll have to research and choose someone I suppose.
2. Oh no, Reichsprotektor won't be the title of the German Republic head. 😏
3. From what I've read, the Sanacja government was strict on creating Polish ethnostate. There were even plans for getting rid of the jewish minority (like exale or integrate them). So there was no plans in bringing more non-polish ethinics into Poland. Only Pilsudsky was kind of proponent of the idea of reforming commonwealth but after the post-WW1 wars, when was the polsih border finalised. Also there was kind of power struggle between pro-German part of the government (represented by Ludwig Beck, creator of the Polish-German non-agression pact) and pro-western camp represented by the president Sikorsky. Before the Munich agreement, there were a correspondence between czechoslovak and polish presidents about polish envolvement against Germany. Sikorsky wrote something like "we are ready to militarily engage should be the CSR attacked" and CS president Beneš wrote back "there will be no war without envolvement of the French". There is some debate, if Sikorsky would be in a position in his government strong enough to push this through, however it shows dedication of at least some polish higher ranking politicians to uphold the status quo.

Edit: not Sikorski, but Moscinski.
Sikorski wasn't a member of Sanacja, he probably said so when he was a polish Prime Minister in 1922-1923 before Sanacja's coup. When Sanacja took power, Sanacja started removing from the important positions those who weren't fully loyal to Piłsudski. After Stalin invaded Poland the Sanacja leaders evacuated themselves with the remnants of the polish armies to Romania, and although Romania quietly allowed the polish troops to pass through Romania to France, Sanacja government itself was interned by Romania who wanted to look neutral. That's how Sanacja was out of the game, and how Sikorski could be appointed as the leader of the polish government-in-exile.

When it comes to Sanacja's ethnic policies, Piłsudski wanted the state assimilation, meaning that he respects the ethnic background and that he only wants the loyalty to the state. He basically believed that the nationalist policies respresented by his main ideological rival, Roman Dmowski, are spoiling the relations with the minorities. But then in 1935 Piłsudski died, and his successors started kinda mimicking the policies of Dmowski, despite continuing to exclude Dmowski's men from the government.
Interesting, thanks for the information. Will consider everything when Poland/Lithuania dynamics become more significant.
 
Actually I don't, this scenario is pretty surprising for me. I never considered a serious civil war against Hitler kicking off pre-WW2 like this before so all of this has been pretty novel so far.
Ditto, I am not sure what the fuck is going to happen because I don't have any significant amount of knowledge to infer their intentions so I'm just seeing how it all turns out lol
 
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