Should the President be able to be re-elected in consecutive terms?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 96.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
I'll be honest, if an ASB said "Pieman, you're going to live in Kaiser Chris' Lone Star Republic, what country do you want to be a citizen of?" I'd always pick the USA. She may be flawed in OTL and TTL, but I'm loyal to the stars and stripes.

But, but, TEXAS! JK, I would understand. It's going to be quite interesting to see what I have planned for America. While I might include several politicians, celebrities, and pop culture developments to OTL; the overall nation will be vastly different than what we have. Different events such as the Great War and people like Huey Long becoming president are going to see that happen.

Okay, so here's what I meant:

"Are they MD stage", essentially means, are they acting like they where with the Monroe Doctrine (re: No European Nations are to influence LA). "RC internationalists" simply means, are they acting like America did after Teddy Roosevelt added the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine (re: Are they using brute force/military might to stop Europe from playing around in LA and are they, themselves messing around in LA, ensuring the countries are on the path America likes best). Then the "State-farm GNs" simply refers to the Clark Memorandum and America enacting the Good Neighbor Policy with LA. I added State-farm to the beginning of it, because of the 'like a good neighbor, state-farm is there' jingle. Anyways, with that, it just means, are they turning away from intervening and messing around in LA, while trying to win goodwill from the Latin American nations?

I would say at this point it's more of a Good Neighbor policy. Not because Washington wants it to be this way, but rather they can't project any influence into Latin America at this point. The Monroe Doctrine technically still exists but its practically worthless with the French intervention in Mexico practically proving that its crap. While yes the US stood back since Santa Anna was a cruel dictator and France helped several active revolutionary movements, by the definition of the Monroe Doctrine there still should've been a response, so it's dead. Lincoln's successor is when we'll really start to see the Latin American policy be developed, especially with the earlier Spanish-American War I hinted on, which will also have huge effects in Spain.

will there be a world map.

I'll ask Pieman to make an updated world map of the world at 1861. The only major changes are Texas gaining Rio Grande New Mexico, Germany unifying but without Alsace-Lorraine, Romania and Hungary becoming Free, and Italy unifying but losing Sardinia to France, free Quebec with the maritimes, American Oregon, and finally a continued Peru-Bolivian Confederation.
 
I'd like to thank everyone who has ever read, liked, posted, or voted for Lone Star Republic. As someone who has only been on the website for half a year it is an extreme honor to have been able to win this prestigious award with my first timeline. Now the glorious Republic of Texas can finally be able to achieve first in something.

Your very welcome there man.^^

For those few like MagicalPhantom who want me to write about Rooster Teeth, don't worry guys, I have an update planned for a special day involving them (though a general update on the company history is allowed).

DAAWWWWW why THANK YOU for rewarding our loyalty with this up and coming special. Though I am willing to bet it will be released on April,1 to celebrate it's thirteenth anniversary.
 
But, but, TEXAS! JK, I would understand. It's going to be quite interesting to see what I have planned for America. While I might include several politicians, celebrities, and pop culture developments to OTL; the overall nation will be vastly different than what we have. Different events such as the Great War and people like Huey Long becoming president are going to see that happen.
Given how far back the PoD is I'd hope the US is a different beast from what we have OTL. Heck you've already changed the US of A irreparably, so to just have her slowly morph back would be disappointing. Of course I know you won't make us suffer that, so I have nothing to worry about.

I'll ask Pieman to make an updated world map of the world at 1861. The only major changes are Texas gaining Rio Grande New Mexico, Germany unifying but without Alsace-Lorraine, Romania and Hungary becoming Free, and Italy unifying but losing Sardinia to France, free Quebec with the maritimes, American Oregon, and finally a continued Peru-Bolivian Confederation.
If it is within my power to do so I accept the challenge. Just be sure to PM me any details you leave out of the updates.
 
Made a map of the Texan states for fun:
texas.png

Lemme know if I got anything wrong.
 
Your very welcome there man.^^



DAAWWWWW why THANK YOU for rewarding our loyalty with this up and coming special. Though I am willing to bet it will be released on April,1 to celebrate it's thirteenth anniversary.

Yes it will be released on April 1st. It won't be a full look at RT's history TTL, but instead will be a focus on one of its shows that I think will surprise you.

Made a map of the Texan states for fun:
View attachment 309386
Lemme know if I got anything wrong.

Holy Crap this is a great map! You actually got the borders of Texas pretty well in this regard. Looks like I might be able to use it in future updates. Thanks for the post! Really looking forward to seeing fascist America against Communist Confederacy in your TL.


Chapter 67 will be posted within a few hours and will cover the U.S elections. And boy will it not be pretty. No Confederacy though, got a few more posts to get to that one.
 
Holy Crap this is a great map! You actually got the borders of Texas pretty well in this regard. Looks like I might be able to use it in future updates. Thanks for the post! Really looking forward to seeing fascist America against Communist Confederacy in your TL
Thank you!
 
Will there any more Daveyisms? I have rather enjoyed his commentary on foreign affairs.

Hmm, I wonder if Crockett will enjoy anything close to his OTL frontier hero status in ITTL America? I could see his lack of martyrdom(perceived, not looking for a debate on how he actually died OTL) and being a foreign head of state making him a bit less appealing; being seen as a Texan hero rather than an American one.
 
Just spent the last few days reading the timeline. Love it! Congrats on the turtledove.

Only minor herring I see is the Desseret (or Mormon) rebellion. Church practice is to honor and sustain the law. While rogues (such as Ezekiel) might exist, and some fundamentalists double down; so long as active persecution was not occurring; I don't believe the leaders would support open rebellion.

In OTL the mountain meadow massacre was perpetuated by a few. That led to OTL United States prosecution of the Mormon war of 52. However, Brigham Young did take swift action and had all participants excommunicated, and ( in the case of the leaders) executed for treason.

Just a minor point like I said and I know your not Mormon bashing (with the 1910 elections hinted at how could you be?) Just thought as a member of the church I would put my 2 cents in.
 
Chapter 67 1860 United States Presidential Election
Chapter 67 1860 United States Presidential Election

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."- President-Elect Abraham Lincoln 1860
"I may have never liked Lamar or his policies but at least I accepted defeat with grace and allowed him to become my successor. Sadly it seems like our American cousins have forgotten losing is merely a part of democracy."- President Sam Houston 1860
"Stephen Douglas may have done his best to keep the status quo but he was a fool in doing so. There can be no compromise in both slavery and the power of the states. It is either one or the other. Ever since Harrison came into power the federal government has slowly become a swamp full of parasites that is attacking the sacred tenets of the constitution that they like to give false praise. With the election of Lincoln America is dead. It is time for a new nation to be born out of the ashes."- President Robert Toombs 1860


In the aftermath of Douglas' assassination the entirety of the United States was in shock. While both sides of the nation had been battling each other for the past decade over various issues such as slavery, state's rights, and economic platforms, and there were many people who hated Douglas and his policies, there were few who actually wanted him dead. The south would mourn the passing of Douglas as one of an American hero who fought for their interests. While the North would grieve the loss of one of their own as that of a tragedy with the killing of one of it's most able politicians. It only took for a few weeks however until tensions started to heat up again. The south naturally started calling out the North for letting Brown and his terrorist cohorts free all these years which lead to the President's untimely death. The North then started arguing back about how slavery had led to these tensions and Douglas' death proved that decisive action needed to be taken or more bloodshed will grow. Of course both sides wouldn't sit down with the other for the time of day and the same infighting spread again. However this time it was far more serious than any previous conflict in the 1850's. For better or for worse Stephen Douglas was a man who in 1850's America represented one of the few paths of compromise that were still available. With Douglas in office there was a path where both sides could roughly agree upon as the president sought to do his best to meet the needs of the American people as a whole rather than act upon sectional divisions. Now with Douglas gone there was hardly anybody qualified to take up his place as a mediator between both sections of the country, everyone who could being either too old or dead. And then there was the fact that the assassination took place straight before an election year. With Douglas' death there would be nothing to hold the Democrats together while the Republicans went on the warpath. Whatever actions the Democrats could've taken united or by siding with the Democrats ending all with one man, Robert Toombs.

In order to understand the mind and actions of Robert Toombs we must look at his career in its entirety. The man who would later be known as the worst U.S President in history was born and raised in Wilkes County Georgia, most of his adult life having been spent in public service either in the Georgia House of Representatives or as a member of the U.S Congress. Throughout his career Tombs was known as a firebrand speaker who could rally up a crowd with his passionate speeches and strong passion, though he had quite a temper and volatile personality that made the man rather unpleasant to deal with. Ironically despite his later actions, Toombs began his career as a member of the Whig Party, one of the south's only members at the time of its existence. Within the party Toombs acted as a heavy supporter of State's Rights though he would frequently call for national reconciliation and loyalty to the Union. Ironically he even opposed the Nashville Convention of 1850 for supporting secession, though his reasons at the time were not that such an act was wrong, but that in his words "The time is not yet right and the cause not necessary for secession.". At the 1852 Democratic National Convention Toombs was chosen as a part of Douglas' ticket due in large part to support from his friend and fellow Georgian congressman, Alexander Stephens. Toombs had a high popularity within the south at the time and was seen as a perfect balance to the ticket as he also held many of the same beliefs that Douglas had, while he had defected from the Whigs in 1851 which could draw considerable support towards their way in the election. Over the course of his six years as Vice President Toombs slowly became radicalized towards his support of the south, slavery, and state's rights. He increasingly saw the Northern Yankees as a bunch of radicals that would tear the nation apart if left unchecked due to their seemingly aggressive empowerment of the federal government and attacks on states rights. Toombs beliefs would be strongly reinforced by actions such as Smith's killing of Brooks and Keitt, Bloody Kansas, the Underground Railroad, and rise of the Republican party further reinforcing his stances on the matter. In Toombs eye he simply could not see why the North would want to attack the South's beliefs and resisted so strongly to the laws of the federal government that legally supported the extension of slavery and the protection of states rights. Over time Toombs began to see things in a matter of us versus them as it was a fight for survival with the Southern folk versus the Northern tyrants. Still there was a general hope in the man that compromise could be sought and that the South could emerge in the end through legal means, as Dred Scott had later proved. Though in appearance it seemed that Toombs was actively going against Douglas with his leadership of the Southern Wing, in truth it could be said that Toombs still held an high admiration and respect for the man, only wishing that Douglas could see his point of view. The point in his life where Robert Toombs could be seen as effectively siding entirely with the South was the assassination of Douglas. After Douglas was shot Toombs rushed to Richmond and tried to comfort his boss through the pain as his life was draining out of his eyes every day. According to American historian Russel Elliot, "The death of Douglas is what truly sent Bobby Toombs over the edge. His killing by John Brown was seen as the crossing of the final line where compromise could no longer be available. Robert Toombs had lost a great friend and mentor that day, and in his grief he blamed the North and the Republicans for this tragedy. All for wanting to go against the south and the will of the American people." After Toombs inauguration he became a hardened man who would in his view would do whatever it take to save the nation, by forcing the law of the land unto the people.

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A caricature of Toombs during his time as a Whig

Toombs first action when returning back to Washington was to immediately use every power he had to crack down on the abolition movement. Using John Brown as a scape goat for the entire cause, Toombs deployed federal marshals across the North to round up abolition leaders and crack down upon the Underground Railroad. The Slave Enforcement Act was followed to the leader and hundreds of slaves would be captured in the winter of 1859 while their white and free black liberators would be arrested and held to trial, the free blacks more often than not tried for the death penalty by southern courts. Federal troops were sent to Kansas by the thousands and were given strict orders to break up the abolitionist territory and enforce the law of the land. Various abolition leaders were also arrested over the course of 1859 and early 1860, and while most would be freed after a few months the ones in the south suffered a worse fate as they were often given long jail sentences or were sometimes hunted down by rogue mobs. Of course these actions were not taken kindly by the North who saw Toombs as something akin to a tyrant, the second coming of Andrew Jackson. The Republicans were united in its efforts to oppose Toombs and along with the efforts of a good number of Northern Democrats, sought to curb his power by blocking all forms of legislation from the south. Toombs in turn rejected any bills from the opposition and virtually nothing was managed to be achieved in congress as the south had half the senate and Toombs' opposition could not get a decisive 2/3rd's majority to override any of his vetoes. Throughout the nation both sides came to a gradual realization that greater action needed to be taken if they were to take control of the government and secure order in the country from the actions of the other side. With a great mindset of the survival of the country in everyone's minds, the American people looked towards the 1860 Elections to save the country. Unfortunately what would result would only be the opposite.

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Federal Marshals hunting down members of the Underground Railroad

In Mid-May the Republicans met at the National Committee in Chicago to come together and try and find a candidate to take the White House away from Toombs and the South. At the convention there were four leading candidates for the Party. Abraham Lincoln, William Seward, Salmon Chase, and Edward Bates. However with each of the latter candidates there were multiple problems that prevented each of them from winning a majority of the convention's delegates. William Seward was a man who was considered too much of a radical by the party establishment for his expressed full support of abolition, something that could be detrimental to their chances of winning an election with the recent actions of John Brown holding a negative light on the abolition movement. Chase was considered too much of a Democrat for the Republicans and he was facing much opposition even from his own state of Ohio for the nomination. Finally Bates was opposed by a majority of the party for his association with the Know Nothings, which would've dropped any immigrant support for the Republicans. Out of all of these candidates Abraham Lincoln was seen as the best shot for winning the nomination. Lincoln was a favorite within the party as he had been leading their efforts in the senate for the past 6 years and became one of its early leaders after the founding. He was known as a well spoken orator who was well educated on national issues and was a war hero for his time in Michigan during the Oregon War. In addition the adding of Lincoln to the ticket was seen as an essential step to winning the West much as Douglas had done in the 1852 election. After the course of a few days the party rallied behind Lincoln as their potential ticket for entry into the White House for the first time. In his acceptance speech Lincoln called for the nation to come together during these hard times and try and work out the problems of slavery and state's rights through compromise and negotiation rather than violence. He recalled his friendship with Douglas and that while they had disagreed on many things, one thing they held true to was the sanctity of the Union that it must be held important above all else. Lincoln also took the time to attack the Democrats for being a party whom he called weak and divided, blaming much of the nation's social problems in the past decade over their unnecessary pushing of slavery into national politics when it wasn't previously a problem, saying that they were clinging to an old archaic system that was dying off and pulling America behind the other nations of the world. For his Vice President William Seward was chosen as while the man was a radical, his place on the ticket was necessary in order to win the abolitionist wing of the party, for the Republicans were looking to capture an electoral majority of the North rather than appeal to southern voters. For the Republican platform of the election was one of bringing back law and order, national unity, support of a Homestead Act, continued building of the transcontinental railroad, higher tariffs, and limiting of slavery in the South. At the end of the convention both Lincoln and Seward along with many prominent Republican politicians and supporters hit the road to try and win over the votes of the North. Seward taking care of the East Coast while Lincoln appealed to the western states.

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Lincoln campaigning at a Republican Rally in Ohio.

While the Republican Convention was a rather tame affair the complete opposite could be said for the Democratic Convention. Toombs actions in his presidency only helped to inflame the great schism of the Democratic Party, not heal it. For the Northern Democrats this put them at a precarious position as while they were completely opposed to Toombs, they were at the same time ideologically in opposition to the Republicans. For some members of the party there was a small sliver of hope that the National Convention in Charleston would solve the issue. The DNC met in April to decide such a case, unfortunately any actual moves for party unification were far from likely. The slave states and some members of the west were in full support of Toombs as they saw him as a man of action who would finally bring victory to the south in the epic debate that had been consuming the nation for the past decade. The Northerners were more skeptical of Toombs and some called him a radical firebrand that was only making the situation just as bad as the Republicans. However the Northern Democrats were unable to effectively find any clear candidate for the nomination since Douglas was in many respects the last candidate they had on the national stage that could appeal to multiple sections of the nation. What happened instead was a fracturing of the North while the South rallied effectively behind Toombs. It took many days for the Convention to decide anything, with a total of 73 ballots taking place. In the end Robert Toombs was chosen as the candidate by the slimest of majorities, with Secretary of State James Buchanan also nominated as the Vice President. Upon the announcement that the President had won the nomination, the Northern Democrats along with some delegates from the border states cried foul and walked off in protest. Disgusted by the actions of the South and desperate for any solution which could block both them and the Republicans, the Northern Democrats reconvened in Baltimore on June 11th to hold their own convention for a seperate candidate. After one week former New York governor Horatio Seymour was chosen as the Northern Democratic candidate with Herschel Johnson as his VP. Not wanting to associate themselves with either the North or the Southern Wing, a group of Democratic delegates made up of former Whigs, moderates, and border delegates gathered in Richmond on the same day as the start of the Baltimore convention. Convinced that their ticket was the only path to any sort of unity in the nation, this new group who called themselves the Constitutional Union Party, chose to nominate John Bell of Tennessee along with Edward Everett of Massachusetts. Their main goal was to simply appeal to the American electorate to not support any of the major party candidates and instead support their party so as to amend the ties in America and prevent any radical control of the White House. Upon hearing of both conventions, President Toombs called both the North and the Constitutional Union as traitors to the party and declared that he would fight them to the bitter end in the election and would never compromise with them in his administration. Thus began the beginning of the end of the Democrats dominance of American politics in the Second Party System.

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The South Carolina Institute. Place of the 1860 DNC and the South Carolina Secession Convention.

For six months all four factions of American politics waged a very brutal and nasty campaign against the others. Unlike previous elections there was no cooperation between the parties and any attempt of a national debate was flatly rejected by all four, though Lincoln was privately open to one to show his oratory skills to the people. Four all those involved it was treated as a matter of life or death, if they did not win then there would be no hope for America. Across the South, primarily in the Deep South which would become the core of the Confederacy, many people began talking of secession from the United States should Lincoln win. The South feared that Lincoln was a dictator who could potentially wipe out the southern way of life in an attempt to give control of the country to the north. In reality it was far from the truth as Lincoln himself was born in Kentucky and only sought to limit slavery in the South, not abolish it. Indeed Lincoln even promised on the campaign trail that he might be open to a constitutional amendment allowing slavery, something that did not boil well with Seward. Still no matter what Lincoln said the Democrats would not listen as they saw the Republicans as the penultimate tool for the destruction of the south. However what all three factions of the Democratic party failed to realize was that by going their own paths they were only helping the Republicans to win. Indeed their total disunity drove many traditional Northern voters of the Democratic party into either staying away from the polls or voting Republican, as many were disgusted by the South's drive to enforce their agenda and the party's disunity over the matter. After all if they couldn't compromise on a candidate for the election how were they supposed to get anything done in congress? The GOP took complete advantage of this by campaigning across the North to push them to vote Republican by fact that they were the successors of the Whigs, which had two very successful presidencies, and they were the only party with a true solution to the nation's problems that could work for the far future. Douglas' death turned out to be a huge crutch to the Northern Democrats in this regard as without him there were few effective politicians who could combat the pool of talent the Republicans had to offer. Indeed the GOP was taking the time not only to win the presidency, but secure their takeover of congress and the states in order to secure their agenda. While Toombs was meeting some amount of success in the south, Bell's ticket was taking away several key votes and Toombs had very little to offer to the North. Were the election taking place today then it would've been clear to many that the Republicans would win the election, unfortunately for the Democrats each candidate was stuck in a bubble where they only saw their election as the right course of action to take. With all of this going on the nation was further collapsing into chaos as protests and riots were becoming commonplace and the economy continued to suffer from the effects of the 1856 Panic. Something needed to be done now.

Election day came on November 6th, 1860. In many areas of the south the sectionalism was so apparent that Lincoln wasn't even on the ballot for several states (something which would be considered illegal in modern times). Across the nation people showed up to their local polling stations in droves as the 1860 Election held the highest turnout rate in American history with an 87% voter turnout. In the coming weeks as the votes were counted and the nation trembled with anticipation, it soon became clear that Lincoln and the Republicans had won the day. The Republicans had managed to take control of the Senate with 32 Senators, a number that could easily be broken with a vote by the Vice President. At the same time the Republicans had increased their control of the House with 137 Representatives. Lincoln had managed to wipe out the competition at the electoral stage with a large 196 electoral votes, whereas had the rest of the Democrats united into one ticket it would only result in 109 Votes. Lincoln also managed to obtain a large pluarity of a respectable 44.5%. On the Democratic side was a clear result of the ticket split as Toombs only received the support of the Deep South and the Bahamas with his poor results in the popular vote showing that he probably wouldn't have been able to win anyways even if he had won the Democratic ticket. Seymour did suprisingly well in the popular section as he managed to become the most successful third party candidate in American history with the popular vote with a large 24.8%, however his inability to form a precise platform and the loss of the south along with the rise of Republican popularity resulted in him winning no states. As for the Constitutional Union while they did decent electorally they had the lowest of the popular vote with only the states of Tennessee, Kentucky, and Virginia supporting them. Any wish for the election to be deadlocked would have been in vain as Republicans had control of the House so they would've elected Lincoln anyways. Across the North Republicans wept in joy for having won the presidency and complete control of congress in their second election, while the rest of the traditional Democratic supporters just hoped that Lincoln had what it would take to solve the current crises. Across the south was an entirely different story as mass protests broke out across the region. Across many southern cities and towns came a call for secession to form their own nation in protest of this apparent travesty. When Abraham Lincoln arrived at the White House in December along with Seward he would soon be shocked to learn that Toombs had virtually skipped town before the end of his term. Where Robert Toombs would be was at his home state of Georgia, where along with four other states of the Deep South, concurrent state conventions were being formed to secede from the Union. Civil War was on the horizon.

1860 Presidential Election

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220px-Horatio_Seymour_-_Brady-Handysmall.png

Lincoln/Seward (R): 196 EV. 2,195,250 Votes 44.5%

Toombs/Buchanan (SD): 69 EV. 913,019 Votes 18.5%
Bell/Everett (C): 40 EV. 600,901 Votes 12.2%
Seymour/Johnson (ND): 1,220,202 Votes 24.8%

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Will there any more Daveyisms? I have rather enjoyed his commentary on foreign affairs.

Hmm, I wonder if Crockett will enjoy anything close to his OTL frontier hero status in ITTL America? I could see his lack of martyrdom(perceived, not looking for a debate on how he actually died OTL) and being a foreign head of state making him a bit less appealing; being seen as a Texan hero rather than an American one.

I can try and see if I can work any Daveyisms into future updates. He's getting pretty old at this point but I'm sure we can find some foreign affairs chapters to have his quotes in.

Davy Crockett in TTL's modern America is well remebered in the south for his frontier hero status. If you go to the North then there will probably be many people who may not remember him due to the fact that the Crockett presidency did not affect America much and he didn't gain martyrdom status with the Alamo. Still, American history books do feature Crockett every now and then along with other creators of Texas for the role they played for their time in America. So Crockett is still somewhat known in the states. As for Texas, Davy Crockett is considered a living legend and one the most badass president in Texan history. Adding to his adventures in America was the fact that he killed Santa Anna which helped turn the tide of the Alamo, he was a key congressmen in the Republic along with the first Western Union president, and I didn't add this in the updates but Crockett is somewhat of a Texan Teddy as he spent his many years between the Revolution and the Presidency going off on crazy adventures in the west. If you went to a Texan bookstore TTL you're bound to find a whole row of books dedicated to Crockett. John Wayne will probably also play him in an anthology of films in the 60's TTL.

Just spent the last few days reading the timeline. Love it! Congrats on the turtledove.

Only minor herring I see is the Desseret (or Mormon) rebellion. Church practice is to honor and sustain the law. While rogues (such as Ezekiel) might exist, and some fundamentalists double down; so long as active persecution was not occurring; I don't believe the leaders would support open rebellion.

In OTL the mountain meadow massacre was perpetuated by a few. That led to OTL United States prosecution of the Mormon war of 52. However, Brigham Young did take swift action and had all participants excommunicated, and ( in the case of the leaders) executed for treason.

Just a minor point like I said and I know your not Mormon bashing (with the 1910 elections hinted at how could you be?) Just thought as a member of the church I would put my 2 cents in.

Thank you very much!

In terms of the Mormon Rebellion I can understand your feelings. I didn't write the chapters with any intent of Mormon bashing as my mother used to be a Mormon before she converted to Catholicism and I have several Mormon relatives. The Mormons Rebellion was just something I decided to write out of intention to create conflict more than anything. OTL they had an important and often overlooked role in the Wild West that will make them key players in Texas in the future. When reading the chapter it's important to remember that the supporters and active members of the rebellion were only a very small portion of the total number of Mormons in Texas. The rest just stayed neutral on the sidelines while Young and most of the church leadership were publicly neutral on the matter. The main reason I say that the Mormons decided to actively revolt was because of the fact that Texas is far weaker than America with less connection to Deseret, so their odds of succeeding would've been high if they had any competent military minds. All of this in totality is really just a parallel to the OTL Utah War if it went violent. Unlike Harry Turtledove I don't have the intention to make the Mormons extremists or have several more rebellions (I love Southern Victory though I consider his blatant writing of Canadian and Mormon terrorism more for shock sake than actual plot). Young understands that they failed the first time so it would be pointless to try again. From here on forward the Mormon position in Texas will only get better as seen in Romney's 1910 Election. I also stated in one of my earlier chapters that the Mormons are considered to be the third most powerful organized religion in Texas behind the Catholic and Baptist Churches. Mormonism also did rather well in America as it spread to much of the midwest like OTL. So while this may be a dark history for the Church of Latter-Day Saints, overall I'd say Mormons have a better outcome here than OTL. Hope that addresses your concerns.
 
Thanks for the reply.

It's refreshing to see someone attempt to keep things in character despite the new direction of the timeline.

Future speculation, I am putting my money on Texas adding a commonwealth after the Mexican war. They'll insist on it.

Also, Spain looks to be heading down the same path more or less. Does Mosleys Britain provide troops to Spanish Civil war in 1930s? If so is he alone in that or is there more support for republicans internationally this time around.
 
Ya know, I kinda wished Spain wouldn't end up in the same boat, but I suppose it can't be helped given Isabel II...

...Dear sweet baby Crockett, Isabel II...what a nightmare.
 
Yes it will be released on April 1st. It won't be a full look at RT's history TTL, but instead will be a focus on one of its shows that I think will surprise you.

The only things that come to mind when I read this sentence are Achievemnet Hunter, Red vs Blue, or RWB-.... :eek:Le GASP, you plan on having Monty Oum not getting to avoid his fatal allergic reaction!?:eek:
 
Thanks for the reply.

It's refreshing to see someone attempt to keep things in character despite the new direction of the timeline.

Future speculation, I am putting my money on Texas adding a commonwealth after the Mexican war. They'll insist on it.

Also, Spain looks to be heading down the same path more or less. Does Mosleys Britain provide troops to Spanish Civil war in 1930s? If so is he alone in that or is there more support for republicans internationally this time around.

I can't reveal too much at this point but I will say that the Mexican War will involve some territorial changes for all parties involved. Especially the Republic of the Rio Grande. As to whether Texas gets a commonwealth or not depends on how it defends its territory and does well against Mexico. Because they'll soon find out that fighting Mexico the third time around will be nowhere easy as the other two.

If you were looking forward to an alternate Spanish Civil War then I'm sorry to disappoint you in that there will not be 1930's Spanish Civil War that is a carbon copy of OTL. An 1870's Spanish-American War is going to have HUGE ripples on Spanish society besides the fact that they lose their empires 20 years early. One thing I don't like about most TL's in this time period is that the Spanish-American War will almost always result in Spain going along the same path as OTL. Will Spain will change so much as a result of the earlier war TTL that by the Great War in 1910 it won't even look like the same country. So there won't be Republicans Vs. Nationalists this time around. There will be a Spanish Civil War of sorts, it's just that it won't contain the same players and will be in a different time period. Also Mosley has an entirely different foreign objective than Hitler. Britannia's policies will be self-sufficiency and the reclamation of some of Britain's empire that they lost, while at the same time propping up fascist governments and client states around the world.
 
So Toombs has skipped town and is probably going to be in his state when it votes to secede. That isn't going to go well if he is. Either he will resign (or otherwise be removed from office) and throw in his lot with the Confederacy, and the Union will have whoever is President pro-tempore, Speaker of the House, or some random cabinet member as president* for a few months, or the President will be in the hands of secessionist rebels. Given that historically Toombs sided with the South I'm leaning with the first option of him resigning and trying to get himself picked as president of the Confederacy. No matter what he has earned his reputation as the worst president in history in this world. His actions though helped make for a darn good update. Looking forward to seeing how the secession crisis unfolds and what you have planned next.

*If President Pro-tempores and Speakers are still OTL it would be Benjamin Fitzpatrick and James Lawrence Orr respectively. Of course they both sided with the Confederacy so the Union I think would be left with whoever was Toombs' secretary of the Treasury, which if again OTL would be Howell Cobb... who sided with the Confederacy. One really hopes at this point Toombs' or Douglass threw a bone to the north with cabinet posts, or those above them in the line of succession aren't OTL.
 
So Toombs has skipped town and is probably going to be in his state when it votes to secede. That isn't going to go well if he is. Either he will resign (or otherwise be removed from office) and throw in his lot with the Confederacy, and the Union will have whoever is President pro-tempore, Speaker of the House, or some random cabinet member as president* for a few months, or the President will be in the hands of secessionist rebels. Given that historically Toombs sided with the South I'm leaning with the first option of him resigning and trying to get himself picked as president of the Confederacy. No matter what he has earned his reputation as the worst president in history in this world. His actions though helped make for a darn good update. Looking forward to seeing how the secession crisis unfolds and what you have planned next.

*If President Pro-tempores and Speakers are still OTL it would be Benjamin Fitzpatrick and James Lawrence Orr respectively. Of course they both sided with the Confederacy so the Union I think would be left with whoever was Toombs' secretary of the Treasury, which if again OTL would be Howell Cobb... who sided with the Confederacy. One really hopes at this point Toombs' or Douglass threw a bone to the north with cabinet posts, or those above them in the line of succession aren't OTL.

Five bucks say that all his cabinet were pro-Confederate...then again, we could see Lincoln be President earlier than March 4. He is President-elect after all.
 
I am honestly intrigued on what states will Secede to join the rebelling southern states, along with the possibility of states staying neutral.
So am I. At this point we know Georgia and South Carolina are joining the Confederacy, and Chris said that four other states are holding secession conventions as of now in timeline, but things are really up in the air. This just keep getting more fun.

Five bucks say that all his cabinet were pro-Confederate...then again, we could see Lincoln be President earlier than March 4. He is President-elect after all.
Actually it seems there is at least one man who'll stay with the Union and end up the 13th president...
Secretary of State James Buchanan
...I thought I remembered reading that long after I made that last post, and a quick double check shows my mind only belatedly didn't fail me. Still not good though when the man who would normally be fifth in line for Presidency finds himself getting sworn in.
 
So Toombs has skipped town and is probably going to be in his state when it votes to secede. That isn't going to go well if he is. Either he will resign (or otherwise be removed from office) and throw in his lot with the Confederacy, and the Union will have whoever is President pro-tempore, Speaker of the House, or some random cabinet member as president* for a few months, or the President will be in the hands of secessionist rebels. Given that historically Toombs sided with the South I'm leaning with the first option of him resigning and trying to get himself picked as president of the Confederacy. No matter what he has earned his reputation as the worst president in history in this world. His actions though helped make for a darn good update. Looking forward to seeing how the secession crisis unfolds and what you have planned next.

*If President Pro-tempores and Speakers are still OTL it would be Benjamin Fitzpatrick and James Lawrence Orr respectively. Of course they both sided with the Confederacy so the Union I think would be left with whoever was Toombs' secretary of the Treasury, which if again OTL would be Howell Cobb... who sided with the Confederacy. One really hopes at this point Toombs' or Douglass threw a bone to the north with cabinet posts, or those above them in the line of succession aren't OTL.

Five bucks say that all his cabinet were pro-Confederate...then again, we could see Lincoln be President earlier than March 4. He is President-elect after all.

Not all of Douglas' cabinet were Pro-Confederate or Southerners as half of them were Yankees with Douglas being from Illinois. However when Toombs came into power he fired many of the Northerners except for those in key positions. So that's going to be a huge problem for Lincoln once he comes into town. Fear not in the line of succession though as the current Speaker of the House is Nathaniel Banks, a Republican from Massachutses. The reason TTL that the Republicans are far more successful in midterm elections is due to Harrison and Webster being presidents. Their 12 years in office greatly increased the Whig membership and voters compared to OTL, causing their supporters to switch over to the Republicans and them gaining more votes, as exemplified by Lincoln's greater elections results. In addition Harrison is the most second most beloved President currently below Washington while Webster had a generally stable presidency. The problems of the nation began when Douglas passed the Kansas-Nebraska act so many Americans associate the country's turmoil with the Democrats. This along with the Civil War and its aftermath will put the Democrats in a weaker position than OTL. And it won't be until William Jennings Bryan that they start to gain electoral stability, with Huey Long bringing them back into equal competition with the GOP.

So am I. At this point we know Georgia and South Carolina are joining the Confederacy, and Chris said that four other states are holding secession conventions as of now in timeline, but things are really up in the air. This just keep getting more fun.


Actually it seems there is at least one man who'll stay with the Union and end up the 13th president...

...I thought I remembered reading that long after I made that last post, and a quick double check shows my mind only belatedly didn't fail me. Still not good though when the man who would normally be fifth in line for Presidency finds himself getting sworn in.

The Confederacy is going to have a far different makeup than OTL. The beginning will still be made up of the Deep South states with the exception of Texas, while new states will join their struggle and some will remain loyal to the Union. One of these new Union states being a critical part of the Confederacy OTL. More will be revealed in Chapter 69 though it won't be until May of 1861 that the boundries start to be formalized. I'll also be giving the Confederacy a different battle flag than OTL.
 
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