London Naval Treaties have larger limits

First LNT (1930)
Subs are limited to 2,600 tons , with each country allowed 3 at 3,600 tons for a total of 70,000 tons. The UK is limited to 20 heavy cruisers with a total tonnage of 280,000, the US with 24 up to 270,000 total tons, Japan with 16 totaling 170,000 tons. Light cruisers are limited to 250,000 for the UK, 200,000 for the US and 150,000 for Japan. US and UK are allowed up to 200,000 tons of destroyers each while Japan is limited to 140,000 tons.

2nd LNT(1936)

Capital ships are limited to 50,000 tons and 16"guns (going to 65,00 tons and 18" in 1938), subs limited to 3,000 tons, light cruisers limited to 12,000 tons and 8" guns, aircraft carriers are limited to 30,000 tons.

Cruisers laid down before 1st January 1921 become overage 16 years after their date of completion. Submarines become overage 12 years after their date of completion

How does this change the war? Does the US being widening the Panama Canal to allow bigger ships through or just build big battleships on both coasts? How much worse is Japan off? What kind of ships do you think would be designed with those limits.
 
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Britain is going to walk away from any treaty with those cruiser limits. Britain has to patrol 3 oceans and 4 seas while the US only has to cover the Pacific, its Atlantic seaboard and the Caribbean.
 
Britain is going to walk away from any treaty with those cruiser limits. Britain has to patrol 3 oceans and 4 seas while the US only has to cover the Pacific, its Atlantic seaboard and the Caribbean.
I increased all limits to all parties by around 30% and their tonnage by 50%. London Naval Treaty These ratios are the same as the original treaty so I don't know why GB would change its mind.

Double checking the numbers I did give the US two too many cruisers so I reduced their number by two.
 
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They are capable of being built by then . The Yamato was 72,000 tons. I don't see why GB and the US can't build substantially smaller ships.
 
They are capable of being built by then . The Yamato was 72,000 tons. I don't see why GB and the US can't build substantially smaller ships.
The Japanese are gonna build 50,000 tonners, the US will counter, the UK will scramble to catch up, and boom everyone is bankrupted from building 50,000 tonners in the worst part of the depression
 
The Japanese are gonna build 50,000 tonners, the US will counter, the UK will scramble to catch up, and boom everyone is bankrupted from building 50,000 tonners in the worst part of the depression
Maybe

Then again Keynesian multiplier effect could pull them out of the Depression.

At least for the US and UK.
 
The Japanese are gonna build 50,000 tonners, the US will counter, the UK will scramble to catch up, and boom everyone is bankrupted from building 50,000 tonners in the worst part of the depression
Nonsense, in the US it will simply put a lot of people back to work as it builds 50,000 ton battleships. I am not sure about the UK, Japan will definitely suffer.
 
I don't think the idea behind those limits were "whatever we are actually able to build".
I realize that, otherwise there wouldn't have been a treaty. The US and UK could almost certainly built even bigger than that. The Yamato was nearly 1/2 again that size. Limiting it to 50,000 tons is definitely limiting it.
 
I realize that, otherwise there wouldn't have been a treaty. The US and UK could almost certainly built even bigger than that. The Yamato was nearly 1/2 again that size. Limiting it to 50,000 tons is definitely limiting it.
Yes, so what changes in their motivation to artificially restrict capital ships to 50.000 instead of 35.000? All were extremly,absolutly weary and afraid of their costs, in a time where most governments were already facing outright unprecedented financial problems after the most expensive war in human memory at the point. What POD do you propose to have all major naval powers change their thinking, and defend that thinking against brutal domectic pressure?
 
Yes, so what changes in their motivation to artificially restrict capital ships to 50.000 instead of 35.000? All were extremly,absolutly weary and afraid of their costs, in a time where most governments were already facing outright unprecedented financial problems after the most expensive war in human memory at the point. What POD do you propose to have all major naval powers change their thinking, and defend that thinking against brutal domectic pressure?
Most likely because Japan, Italy and Germany are even more obnoxious than OTL and everyone is worried. If you want , you can assume Japan and Italy at least are already building 50,000 ton battleships.
 
Most likely because Japan, Italy and Germany are even more obnoxious than OTL and everyone is worried. If you want , you can assume Japan and Italy at least are already building 50,000 ton battleships.
Why? The Italians couldn't build 35,000 tonners they were allowed OTL, and the Japanese didn't just start spamming BB's in 1930 OTL, they negotiated another treaty. The Germans can't build anything more than 10,000 tons, if they do the Allies won't like it, and you could see an intervention in the Rhineland Crisis.
 
Why? The Italians couldn't build 35,000 tonners they were allowed OTL, and the Japanese didn't just start spamming BB's in 1930 OTL, they negotiated another treaty. The Germans can't build anything more than 10,000 tons, if they do the Allies won't like it, and you could see an intervention in the Rhineland Crisis.
2nd treaty is 1936, The Yamato was laid down one year later. I don't think it is beyond belief that Japan could build it or something somewhat smaller a year earlier. The Littorio class battleships were laid down in 1934 and were 45,000 tons. The Bismark class battleships were 50,000 tons and laid down in 1936.
 
2nd treaty is 1936, The Yamato was laid down one year later. I don't think it is beyond belief that Japan could build it or something somewhat smaller a year earlier. The Littorio class battleships were laid down in 1934 and were 45,000 tons. The Bismark class battleships were 50,000 tons and laid down in 1936.
Are we talking standard or full displacements? The treaties measured in standard, and by that the Yamato's were about 65,000 tons, the Bismarck's were in the 45000 ton range, and the Littorio's were about 42000. I could see a 40000 ton limit with an escalator of 45000? Is that what you meant?
 
Are we talking standard or full displacements? The treaties measured in standard, and by that the Yamato's were about 65,000 tons, the Bismarck's were in the 45000 ton range, and the Littorio's were about 42000. I could see a 40000 ton limit with an escalator of 45000? Is that what you meant?
That might be better, I admit I don't really know the difference between standard and full.
 
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