Lombardic Italy

After quite a few hours of CKII I came to wonder if it is possible for the Lombardic language to survive as that used by the aristocracy and is possibly supported (directly or not) but the H.R.E. Basically what I am trying to get at is, could Lombardic survive to our time as at minimum as a language of the elite? Could it become the language of a unified Italy (even if it has extensive borrowings etc.)?
 
Your problem here is the immense cultural (and religious) prestige that Latin had so even if you take the nunerical superiority if the italic vulgar latin speaking population you would still have Latin as the prime written language and most importantly spoken language by the clergy.
Maybe you could however have a situation like that of Hungary where the Magyar language survived along with latin, which was the "official" language until the xviii century, possibly because speaking Magyar was a requisite to be a part of the warrior class and thus take part in the lucrative raids at the beginnibg of the Kingdom.
So you would need the Lombards to acquire a similar mindset and probably to be more intolerant towards the local populace and clergy (maybe they stay Aryan?), but this seems to be not conductive to the long term viability of the Lombard Kingdom.
 
The Lombards converted to Catholicism between the late 6th and the middle of 7th century, and after that there was no real possibility that the relatively small number of Lombards would avoid being absorbed by the much larger population of Italian/Latin origin. This said, the Lombard language left significant traces on the vulgar latin, that over the next few centuries would become Italian (in particular words related to place names, or to legal terms - but there are at least 300 words in modern Italian that are descended from Lombard roots even if for a number of them there is an alternative Gothic origin). http://bighipert.blogspot.it/p/glossarietto-longobardo.html

It might be interesting if the Lombard kingdom had strengthened the ties with the Bavarian dukes (Theodelinda, queen of the Lombards and married to king Authari in 589, was the daughter of Garibald I duke of Bavaria. She also started the conversion of Lombards to the Nicene creed). There were often marital ties between Lombards and Bavarians and a possible POD might have been the union of the two kingdoms to resist to the Franks. Even in that case however I doubt that the Lombard language would have survived, but it's possible that its influence on vulgar Italian might be greater.
 
The Lombards converted to Catholicism between the late 6th and the middle of 7th century, and after that there was no real possibility that the relatively small number of Lombards would avoid being absorbed by the much larger population of Italian/Latin origin. This said, the Lombard language left significant traces on the vulgar latin, that over the next few centuries would become Italian (in particular words related to place names, or to legal terms - but there are at least 300 words in modern Italian that are descended from Lombard roots even if for a number of them there is an alternative Gothic origin). http://bighipert.blogspot.it/p/glossarietto-longobardo.html

It might be interesting if the Lombard kingdom had strengthened the ties with the Bavarian dukes (Theodelinda, queen of the Lombards and married to king Authari in 589, was the daughter of Garibald I duke of Bavaria. She also started the conversion of Lombards to the Nicene creed). There were often marital ties between Lombards and Bavarians and a possible POD might have been the union of the two kingdoms to resist to the Franks. Even in that case however I doubt that the Lombard language would have survived, but it's possible that its influence on vulgar Italian might be greater.

Well, there is some speculation that one of the Germanic dialects present in modern day Italy is actually a descendant of Lombardic. I'm not sure if this is true (I'm not linguist, as I always stress), but if it is, then some form of the Lombard tongue survived to the present day.

I actually think that Lombard becoming the dominant language in northern Italy is doable if we sent the point of divergence back far enough. I think a lot of modern readers forget just how depopulated Italy was after the Gothic wars, and when ever there is that much of a population vacuum, its at least possible for a new language to become entrenched. Personally, I think one of the things that would help is if the Reign of the Dukes never happened. Make sure that Albion and Cleph are not assassinated, and maintain a strongish monarchy from the earliest days forward. With each Duke not going off on his own, you might actually see a slower conquest of southern Italy as well as an even more concentrated Lombard settlement in the north. Also, it would help if these Kings could continue to invite Saxon and Bavarian allies in to help settle the country (if they feel a bit threatened by the power of their own Dukes, they may do this to introduce a population that will be loyal to the themselves.). This would further entrench the Germanic identity of the region.

Next, it is important to keep the Lombards Arian. This shouldn't be entirely impossible, due to the long standing rivalry between the Lombard kings and the Pope. As long as the Lombards remain Arian they can not assimilate completely into the local culture and will always be differentiated.

Latin is always going to be a language of prestige and government, and I don't think there is anyway to counteract that at this point in history. However, if modern day Lombardy is settled by enough Lombardic and Germanic speakers, you may well see the everyday people of that region begin to adopt the language simply to get by in life (they would need it to trade, conduct business, and communicate with their neighbors). In that case, Lombardic would become entrenched and could grow to become the dominate language of the region. This, of course, is only in the North; I don't see any conceivable way to make Southern Italy speak Lombardic.
 
Well, there is some speculation that one of the Germanic dialects present in modern day Italy is actually a descendant of Lombardic. I'm not sure if this is true (I'm not linguist, as I always stress), but if it is, then some form of the Lombard tongue survived to the present day.

I actually think that Lombard becoming the dominant language in northern Italy is doable if we sent the point of divergence back far enough. I think a lot of modern readers forget just how depopulated Italy was after the Gothic wars, and when ever there is that much of a population vacuum, its at least possible for a new language to become entrenched. Personally, I think one of the things that would help is if the Reign of the Dukes never happened. Make sure that Albion and Cleph are not assassinated, and maintain a strongish monarchy from the earliest days forward. With each Duke not going off on his own, you might actually see a slower conquest of southern Italy as well as an even more concentrated Lombard settlement in the north. Also, it would help if these Kings could continue to invite Saxon and Bavarian allies in to help settle the country (if they feel a bit threatened by the power of their own Dukes, they may do this to introduce a population that will be loyal to the themselves.). This would further entrench the Germanic identity of the region.

Next, it is important to keep the Lombards Arian. This shouldn't be entirely impossible, due to the long standing rivalry between the Lombard kings and the Pope. As long as the Lombards remain Arian they can not assimilate completely into the local culture and will always be differentiated.

Latin is always going to be a language of prestige and government, and I don't think there is anyway to counteract that at this point in history. However, if modern day Lombardy is settled by enough Lombardic and Germanic speakers, you may well see the everyday people of that region begin to adopt the language simply to get by in life (they would need it to trade, conduct business, and communicate with their neighbors). In that case, Lombardic would become entrenched and could grow to become the dominate language of the region. This, of course, is only in the North; I don't see any conceivable way to make Southern Italy speak Lombardic.

Yes but today the Po Valley have around +20 million inhabitants, even if the Langobards (the Lombards pre-Latin name, it means long beards) only dominated that area, they would be a significant ethnic group in Europe. You could also imagine if the Langobards was in majority in the Po Valley, they would if they still came under Frankish rule, be used as colonists in the eastern Slavic populated marches. Fundamental serving to Germanise Slovenia and Istria.
 
Someone was gonna knock down Lombardy. I mean, you need k_italy to get the 'Form the Holy Roman Empire' decision to activate.

The Lombards will probably still be absorbed into Italian culture eventually, and trying to stamp out Italian culture in favour of their own will likely destabilize their kingdom.
 
Someone was gonna knock down Lombardy. I mean, you need k_italy to get the 'Form the Holy Roman Empire' decision to activate.

The Lombards will probably still be absorbed into Italian culture eventually, and trying to stamp out Italian culture in favour of their own will likely destabilize their kingdom.

I think that's a little too deterministic. Italian Culture isn't hard coded into the peninsula, after all. To keep with the analogy, it is likely to occur a vast majority of the time if certain conditions are met, but its possible for it to be undermined. Furthermore, the Kingdom of the Lombards was no easy push over. Charlemagne was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. Hell, if Pope Stephen II hadn't died when he did, or someone besides Adrian I be elected as Pope, and the entire war would likely have never taken place.

But, that's besides the point, since I think that an earlier POD might make the a culturally and linguistically Lombard North Italy as possibility.
 
Well, there is some speculation that one of the Germanic dialects present in modern day Italy is actually a descendant of Lombardic. I'm not sure if this is true (I'm not linguist, as I always stress), but if it is, then some form of the Lombard tongue survived to the present day.

I actually think that Lombard becoming the dominant language in northern Italy is doable if we sent the point of divergence back far enough. I think a lot of modern readers forget just how depopulated Italy was after the Gothic wars, and when ever there is that much of a population vacuum, its at least possible for a new language to become entrenched. Personally, I think one of the things that would help is if the Reign of the Dukes never happened. Make sure that Albion and Cleph are not assassinated, and maintain a strongish monarchy from the earliest days forward. With each Duke not going off on his own, you might actually see a slower conquest of southern Italy as well as an even more concentrated Lombard settlement in the north. Also, it would help if these Kings could continue to invite Saxon and Bavarian allies in to help settle the country (if they feel a bit threatened by the power of their own Dukes, they may do this to introduce a population that will be loyal to the themselves.). This would further entrench the Germanic identity of the region.

Next, it is important to keep the Lombards Arian. This shouldn't be entirely impossible, due to the long standing rivalry between the Lombard kings and the Pope. As long as the Lombards remain Arian they can not assimilate completely into the local culture and will always be differentiated.

Latin is always going to be a language of prestige and government, and I don't think there is anyway to counteract that at this point in history. However, if modern day Lombardy is settled by enough Lombardic and Germanic speakers, you may well see the everyday people of that region begin to adopt the language simply to get by in life (they would need it to trade, conduct business, and communicate with their neighbors). In that case, Lombardic would become entrenched and could grow to become the dominate language of the region. This, of course, is only in the North; I don't see any conceivable way to make Southern Italy speak Lombardic.

The Lombards were too few to change the cultural and linguistic make up of Italy (while there still is an argument going on among historians on the numbers of the migration, the majority supports a figure between 100,000 and 150,000, inclusive of warriors, women and other non-combatants, with the highest figures being located in the 250-300,000 bracket. Even if the population of Italy was at a nadir, it is not believable that it could be less than 3 million, possibly even four). The invaders, who did not come as a single host but rather in dribbles and drabbles and most likely started to relocate in north-eastern Italy even before the end of the Gothic war, were not even all Lombards: there were significant amounts of Eruls, Saxons, Avars among them.

However the most important factor which would have prevented Lombard from becoming a dominant language was the lack of a written form, even more than that the lack of an educated class. Almost immediately (584) the monarchical restoration after the anarchy of the age of dukes forced the king to borrow from the surviving Latin structures to administer the lands that were forcibly taken from the possessions of the dukes and included into the royal demesne. The gastalds and the skuldheis who were appointed to administer these lands in the name of the king had a Lombard title but used latin to carry out all the administration tasks (and it is quite likely that a portion of them was not Lombard). Even Paulus Diaconus (720-799) who was certainly a Lombard never wrote anything in his ancestral language but always used latin.

The preservation of the Arian faith is also very much unlikely: besides the fact that not even all of the Lombards were Arians (possibly between 1/3 and 1/2 was still pagan), how could an heresy who was followed by such small numbers of the population survive? The conversion to Catholicism started very early, before the end of the 6th century, and since the royal lineage was mostly Catholic (there was an alternance of Catholic and Arian kings in the 7th century but the Arian ones were mostly rebellious dukes) there was an even stronger pressure to convert. The true differentiation between Lombards and non-Lombards was the legal system as codified in 643 by king Rothari in his famous Edict (obviously written in Latin, even if the language was pretty coarse): the Lombards would be judged according to the traditional Lombard law, while the "Romans" would be judged according to Roman law. By the first decade of 8th century however, the vast majority of the cases discussed in Northern Italy was under Lombard law which demonstrates that the separation between the two populations was almost ended.
 
Yes but today the Po Valley have around +20 million inhabitants, even if the Langobards (the Lombards pre-Latin name, it means long beards) only dominated that area, they would be a significant ethnic group in Europe. You could also imagine if the Langobards was in majority in the Po Valley, they would if they still came under Frankish rule, be used as colonists in the eastern Slavic populated marches. Fundamental serving to Germanise Slovenia and Istria.
Actually the strongest concentration of Lombards was not in the Po valley, but rather in Tuscany (where the countryside had truly been depopulated during the last phase of the Gothic wars) and in Friuli where the boundaries of the kingdom had to be defended from Avar incursions.
 
Actually the strongest concentration of Lombards was not in the Po valley, but rather in Tuscany (where the countryside had truly been depopulated during the last phase of the Gothic wars) and in Friuli where the boundaries of the kingdom had to be defended from Avar incursions.

I don't think that the Langobards could survive as a Germanic group in Tuscany, the area is too central, small and economic important, they either need control over a large area or a isolated one. Friuli on the other hand could be interesting, you could see the Langobard survive there as some kind of Yeomen and spread into Slovenia, Carinthia, Styria and Istria as colonists to defend against incursion from the east.
 
I was not trying to postulate a possible survival of the Lombards as a separate group in Tuscany (as a matter of fact I'd believe that they will be merged without major issues into the post-Roman Italic mainstream) but rather indicating where the Lombards were present IOTL with the highest numbers compared to the population of a given area. This said, there was a significant (and surprising) survival of Lombard folk tales in Tuscany, as well as a number of decorations and even architectural motifs which survived and became part of the Tuscan heritage, not to mention that the number of Lombard words which became part of Tuscan vulgar language is quite high, and compares well with dialects from Eastern Lombardy (Bergamo and Brescia) and western Veneto (Verona and Trento). Another very significant detail is the survival of a large part of Lombard aristocracy even after the fall of the Lombard kingdom of Italy and the beginning of the Carolingian dominance. The great Tuscan houses had all claims to a Lombard ancestry (typical for example the house of Canossa, which originates from Lucca and even as late as the early 12th century was still following Lombard law rather than Frank or Roman for inheritance purposes): I would interpret this feature as a proof of the significant footprint the Lombards left in Tuscany.
 
I was not trying to postulate a possible survival of the Lombards as a separate group in Tuscany (as a matter of fact I'd believe that they will be merged without major issues into the post-Roman Italic mainstream) but rather indicating where the Lombards were present IOTL with the highest numbers compared to the population of a given area. This said, there was a significant (and surprising) survival of Lombard folk tales in Tuscany, as well as a number of decorations and even architectural motifs which survived and became part of the Tuscan heritage, not to mention that the number of Lombard words which became part of Tuscan vulgar language is quite high, and compares well with dialects from Eastern Lombardy (Bergamo and Brescia) and western Veneto (Verona and Trento). Another very significant detail is the survival of a large part of Lombard aristocracy even after the fall of the Lombard kingdom of Italy and the beginning of the Carolingian dominance. The great Tuscan houses had all claims to a Lombard ancestry (typical for example the house of Canossa, which originates from Lucca and even as late as the early 12th century was still following Lombard law rather than Frank or Roman for inheritance purposes): I would interpret this feature as a proof of the significant footprint the Lombards left in Tuscany.


Wait; there was a survival of Lombard folktales? This I had never heard! Do you know where I could find any examples? That sounds amazing.
 
Apparently what few inscriptions in Lombardic have come down to us show evidence of the High German Consonant Shift, particularly t > z (ts). This makes it somewhat hard to determine whether the modern-day languages of Cimbrian and Mòcheno, spoken in the Veneto and Trentino regions, are surviving remnants of Lombardic (minority view) or divergent varieties of Bavarian that date back to around the 11th century (majority view). It'd certainly be interesting if the former wss correct, because then we'd have the sole example of a Migration Period Germanic tongue surviving in a Romance-speaking region (other than, debatably, English).
 
Apparently what few inscriptions in Lombardic have come down to us show evidence of the High German Consonant Shift, particularly t > z (ts). This makes it somewhat hard to determine whether the modern-day languages of Cimbrian and Mòcheno, spoken in the Veneto and Trentino regions, are surviving remnants of Lombardic (minority view) or divergent varieties of Bavarian that date back to around the 11th century (majority view). It'd certainly be interesting if the former wss correct, because then we'd have the sole example of a Migration Period Germanic tongue surviving in a Romance-speaking region (other than, debatably, English).

What do you think of the "sword of Pernik"?
pernik-sword.jpg


One of the hypothesis is that the Latin characters on the blade are in Lombardic, and stand for "I do not await eternity, I am eternity", which would make a great tale but it looks to me a bit forced

As far as Cimbrian and Mocheno being surviving remnants of Lombardic, I admit that I'm more in favor of the "Bavarian" origin (I'm not a linguist, so I am mostly reasoning in historical terms: the Lombards inhabiting Friuliat the time of the Frank invasion would have been more likely to be pushed toward the eastern border rather than allowed to find a precarious refuge in the Alps).

There have been interesting findings in studying the dialects of the mountainous area between Lucca and Pistoia on one side and the high Reno river on the other (more or less along the modern railway line between Pistoia and Bologna): apparently the number of Lombardic words found in these dialects (which are sadly disappearing) compared to dialects in the lower Tuscany or in Emilia. Bologna was taken by the Lombards pretty late (727) while Modena and Pistoia were taken at the beginning of the Lombard invasion. It would make sense that the valleys on either sides of the Appennine would have been inhabited by a high number of Lombards being on the border with the Pentapolis: Lucca was the seat of the Lombard duke of Tuscia, while Pistoia was the seat of an important garrison under a gastald. Surviving documents prove that the Lombard law (based on the Edict of Rothari) was widely used in Pistoia (at least to the late 12th century, and even beyond), which is a bit of an anomaly since townsmen where more likely to use Roman law or at least Frank law by the 10th century (survival of Lombard law was more frequent among aristocracy, since it was more favorable for inheritances and in particular to maintain a firm control on properties granted to the church by the same aristocrats). IMHO this would hint to a survival of a nucleus of Lombards in the area.
 
What do you think of the "sword of Pernik"?
pernik-sword.jpg


One of the hypothesis is that the Latin characters on the blade are in Lombardic, and stand for "I do not await eternity, I am eternity", which would make a great tale but it looks to me a bit forced

As far as Cimbrian and Mocheno being surviving remnants of Lombardic, I admit that I'm more in favor of the "Bavarian" origin (I'm not a linguist, so I am mostly reasoning in historical terms: the Lombards inhabiting Friuliat the time of the Frank invasion would have been more likely to be pushed toward the eastern border rather than allowed to find a precarious refuge in the Alps).

There have been interesting findings in studying the dialects of the mountainous area between Lucca and Pistoia on one side and the high Reno river on the other (more or less along the modern railway line between Pistoia and Bologna): apparently the number of Lombardic words found in these dialects (which are sadly disappearing) compared to dialects in the lower Tuscany or in Emilia. Bologna was taken by the Lombards pretty late (727) while Modena and Pistoia were taken at the beginning of the Lombard invasion. It would make sense that the valleys on either sides of the Appennine would have been inhabited by a high number of Lombards being on the border with the Pentapolis: Lucca was the seat of the Lombard duke of Tuscia, while Pistoia was the seat of an important garrison under a gastald. Surviving documents prove that the Lombard law (based on the Edict of Rothari) was widely used in Pistoia (at least to the late 12th century, and even beyond), which is a bit of an anomaly since townsmen where more likely to use Roman law or at least Frank law by the 10th century (survival of Lombard law was more frequent among aristocracy, since it was more favorable for inheritances and in particular to maintain a firm control on properties granted to the church by the same aristocrats). IMHO this would hint to a survival of a nucleus of Lombards in the area.

Wow, that's awesome! I had no idea about this enduring Lombardic influence in Tuscany, can you link me some articles?

As for the Pernik sword inscription, I've been trying to interpret the supposed translation in terms of my knowledge of German, Swedish, and Old English. According to Wikipedia, the Lombardic parsing would be:

IH INI NI hVIL PIDH, INI hVIL PN
"I do not await eternity, I am eternity."

I would gloss this as:
I - ? - not - eternity - await, ? - eternity - am

I'm not sure of the INI element, but based on its placement it seems to be an adverb or a conjunction, especially in the second clause, where it seems to mean something like "but (rather)".

hVIL (eternity) would be cognate with English "while", and PN is obviously equivalent to German "bin"; interesting that this shows devoicing of 'b' to 'p', which happened historically in several upper High German (Alpine) varieties. PIDH I'm guessing would be cognate with English "bide".

Interesting stuff! I'd say a Lombardic interpretation is plausibe, but I'd like to know what the INI element would be. From an archaeological perspective though, it's crucial to know exactly when the sword was constructed, and if it's Lombardic, how it ended up in Bulgaria. It would also be good to confirm whether such an inscription would be commonly found on Lombardic culture items, seeing as how the majority interpretation is rather a Christian Latin formula.

Edit: sorry about the bold, can't seem to turn it off on mobile
 
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