Logistical limits on an allied Army of the Urals in a Nazi Cold War scenario?

Take your standard (and admittedly cliche and very unlikely) "Nazis win the war" (USSR defeated, UK bows out after a disaster at Dunkirk, USA never gets involved variant). The Nazis manage to push all the way to the Urals and stop there.

Let's set aside arguments about how plausible any of that is (I know it's not very) and accept it as the scenario axioms, please.

Anyway, down the road a bit, the USA gets more active in defense of the rump-USSR and begins to station forces along the Ural border. With everything having to come from the Pacific or up from Iran through Central Asia, how large an American (and UK, Australian, etc) army could likely be maintained in and just east of the Urals?
 

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Its a pretty hard limit based on the capacity of the Trans-Siberian RR. Not sure what that limit is, but its a rough one to supply an army from; if they were using Soviet equipment from local production or getting the Soviets to manufacture in the Urals American equipment then its a lot more doable and they can ship in machines and raw materials like IOTL to build stuff on site and then equip American troops there...not sure if that would work though.
 

shiftygiant

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And WAllied influence is going to be limited to economic, arms, and advisers, and even then Britain will likely act covertly in this regard, as in a Nazi Victory, them acting against the new masters of Europe will lead to heavy bombing.
 
Logistically a nightmare. The Germans by now have regauged the Russian RR system to standard, and probably added to it. Additionally I expect they will have improved the road net somewhat. Therefore not only are they closer to their centers but their ability to move things to the Urals is pretty decent. On the other hand, even if the trans-Siberian is double tracked from Vladivostok to the Urals that's about it. The rail net east of the Urals is thin, roads are a joke and will take decades to upgrade and the rump USSR has limited resources. Pretty much everything from ammunition to socks will need to be imported, this rump USSR will be lucky to feed itself and will they even have compatible small arms ammo?

I can see helping the USSR rebuild, military aid, maybe even observers but any sort of large US presence on the border - no way. As I recall there was significant cross-border partisan activity, and it would not do well for US forces to get involved.
 
Hm. Fiddlesticks!

My idea was to have a massive US/allied army along the Urals, but it's not that crucial to the story in question, which takes place after the Nazis are overthrown and the US/allies have the fun job of trying to keep the post-Nazi peace. Initial notion was that the POV character would have been stationed on the Urals up until the Reich collapsed and then went west with the rest of the Army of the Urals, but coming across the Channel and then east across Europe to her destination works just as well. A pity - it would have been some nice background color. Oh well! The new idea lets me paint a bit of a picture of Europe from northern France all the way to NW Russia as she passes through it.

Thanks, folks.
 

CalBear

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Logistically very, very difficult, but not impossible. The question becomes one more of resolve and time than anything else. That is where the impossible comes in.

It would take, at the minimum, a decade of all out wartime effort to build up the transport network, then 4-5 years to defeat the Reich. The chances of at least two different U.S. Administrations and based on history, at least three different leaders of the USSR staying course for that long (I can't see Stalin, assuming he is still alive, even letter the survey teams in to start construction) are close to nil.

The only way the U.S. maintains interest in the war for a decade+ is if the UK is still involved and warfare is impacting shipping in the Atlantic.
 
Oh, I should be clear - the US isn't at war with the Reich at any point.

My vague (and very implausible, I know) timeline is something like this:

Before the war, Churchill (taxi accident), FDR (Giuseppe Zangara) and Stalin (killed in a Red Army coup attempt during the purges) are all dead.

1940 - Disaster at Dunkirk and a moderately worse Battle of Britain force the UK to the negotiating table.

1941 - The Germans capture Leningrad and Moscow (with the Red Army just that much weaker because of the troubles in 1937). It takes a few more years, and a lot of bloodshed, but eventually they reach the Urals.

1942-1940something - the US is involved in some form of Pacific War while the Nazis stamp out most serious partisan activity.

1953 or 1957 - the new US President starts seriously supporting rump-USSR. Coincidentally enough, this happens after the US has established a strong nuclear arsenal (the Nazis are still very much struggling on this front). Enter this TL's Cold War.

2013 or 2014 - Reich Civil War begins, people all over the world are nervous about the Nazi nukes (the Abwehr manages to substitute the Fuhrer's nuclear suitcase with a non-functioning duplicate, fortunately). When the new sort-of-democratic regime manages to secure control over most of the Reich, it invites in the Allies to help keep things from falling apart completely. Nazi insurgents are still active all over the place, to say nothing of the wrath of Russians, Poles, and so on who survived the nightmare.

Like I said, it's not really that important how my main character gets to her base (the city formerly known as Kingisepp), but I kind of liked the image of a US Army Group stationed along and behind the Urals a la the old border between East and West Germany.
 
In a scenario with 50+ years postwar, and a Nazi collapse, then you can potentially bring supplies in via the Black Sea or Iran. A supply line from Vladivostok to the Urals is still pretty long, and even with a major highway and much improved trans-Siberian RR difficult. Of course if no major combat is going on, and you've built up supplies in advance, the strain is much, much less. If there is significant combat going on then things can be difficult. If the rump USSR is producing enough food for itself and some for the US troops, if small arms and other ammo is standardized so US troops can use "made in the USSR" ammo & so forth (like NATO standardization) that reduces the burden.
 

CalBear

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In that case, it is a non starter.

Only actual wartime needs could get Congress to spend the ungodly sums of money required to build an actual transportation network across a frozen big empty.
 
In that case, it is a non starter.

Only actual wartime needs could get Congress to spend the ungodly sums of money required to build an actual transportation network across a frozen big empty.

Foo. Okay - seems sensible enough. So long, Army of the Urals.

Why occupy all that, when they can just install puppet governments in place?

Isn't it hard to install puppet governments and keep peoples from massacring each other if you're not actually on the scene?
 
Getting rid of Stalin means no deal to Split Poland, no Baltic Countries, and most important, end to purges, so the VVS is saved that.

Attacking from Poland into the teeth of an intact Stalin Line is really difficult
 
Getting rid of Stalin means no deal to Split Poland, no Baltic Countries, and most important, end to purges, so the VVS is saved that.

Attacking from Poland into the teeth of an intact Stalin Line is really difficult

All this is mitigated by the fact that a Second Russian Civil War, however short (I picture it lasting just a couple months) will 1) wreck things up a good bit and 2) leave the leadership brittle and suspicious, neither of which bode well for the upcoming war.

("But if the POD is the better part of a decade earlier..." "SHUT UP IT'S ALL THE SAME.")
 
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