Little Boy failed to detonate

[Lord Grattan]

Yah, this horse is beaten beyond recognition and it's no longer fun. Sianarah thread!

 

[The Militant One]

Ah... Thank you kindly.

You're welcome. I am a fountain of generousity today.

 

[Eleven11]

The Americans have a back up, its called more bombs.

Cheaper bombs, plenty of them. Why would some crackpots build a billion dollar superweapon and deploy it so high in the sky as to give the effect that a hundred or so B-29 had done it with conventional firebomblets (m-69)? The US had it's fleets of B-29 built and crews at the ready status when they said Hiroshima was bombed. In one case you spend less than one million dollars in the other you spend BILLIONS for the same job. Can you spell ripoff? 2 billion dollars to destroy 6 sq kms of residential/commercial paper and wood shacks? It's unbelievable, not one single military target.

If they don't have that they have conventional weaponary. If that doesn't work they have an unbreakable blockade.

A blockade so effective in fact that there was absolutely no need for further bombing and loss of human life.

Should the nuclear weapons fail to function the Americans just shrug their shoulders and continue their planned invasion of Japan.

So, this is supposed to be another of those instances where the mighty atom bomb becomes a little firecracker nobody needs to worry about? Is that how it works, she's mighty one minute and barely a fart the next.

Should that meet with failure due to the storms then they would simply continue to starve the country to death.

Why starve them if they are derfenseless? Isn't that barbaric?

This was something the Japanese could not prevent.

Right, and they knew perfectly well that resistance was futile from the first moments the swarms of B-29 blackenned their skies and rained ignited fuel on their heads as they slept. The Emperor set up portions of his constituencies for the worst kind of slaughter. The US helped them out to no ends in this cleansing and real estate scams in the shroud of war.

By mid-1946 there isn't much of a Japanese state left.
Japan disintegrated way before that. Only a fool would not see the futility of resisting a blockade like that and thousands of loaded B-29.

Suppose the Japanese do find a nuclear weapon intact. It matters not. The Japanese have no ability to launch such a weapon.

The Japanese are pioneers in rocketry. They have boats they can disguise for running the blockade then all they do is sail the package right into New York harbour and ...you know.

The Americans would not be overly concerned even if they could. At best it could be employed in a land-mine attack, possibly killing a few thousand.

"Probably" being the key word.

Small change given casualty estimates for the invasion were up in the region of a million (a drastic over-estimation in my view but there you go).

Read up on Operation Olympic and you will see the estimate was more like 5 million. The Japanese Emperor threw in the towel when the vast majority of those they consider human cattle and useless eaters and rablerousers were dead and the real estate situation more manageable. There was never going to be anything else, the Japs were beat almost from the get-go.

The nuclear weapons may have caused the Japanese surrender.

The devastation of Tokyo 6 months earlier did not impress the Emperor. 26 sq kms destroyed and 100,000 killed in the worst way. Why would the Emperor feel devastated when 6 sq kms are destroyed later? Why would the US want to project the illusions that they had a backup plan if their superweapons failed to dissuade the Emperor if such weapons were so devastating?

The Soviet declaration of war may have done so.

Japan could easily see that the Russians had other pressing matters to tend to. The Us knew that Russia was battleworn and eager to rebuild that torn country.

It does not matter. By this point the Japanese are defeated.

That is why I said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not required to achieve a military victory. Nobody needed to starve anyone.

They have no hope of turning the tide.

Destroying the financial center of the US would have resulted in collapse and chaos. Actually Hitler's Luftwaffe were working on such a plan to bomb Manhatten with a atom bomb for just that reason. To destabilize the US by striking it's financial center.

They could be given a dozen nuclear weapons and a small fleet of B-29s to carry them but they would still have lost.

Not if they vaporized New York.

At best they can hope to upset the Americans to the point where they make good on all the war time rhetoric to wipe the Japanese from the face of the earth.

Not if the Americans find out first that the bomb that just destroyed New York was lost by the US over Japan. The backlash could go either way. At times the US government military were skating on thin ice massacring 10s of millions of good men in women in military strategies that made the whole thing look like premeditated genocide.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

You are arrogant and ignorant. This thread is a hypothetical situation. Do you think I am trying to rewrite history, is that why you are reacting like a fool?

Post Reported- please don't respond to reasoned debate about your AH with insults, it is likely to garner you nothing but the wrath of Ian.

Guy's, this equine has expired, please stop the flagellation.

 

[alt_historian]

EVERY ONE JUST STOP!

whats the F***ing point talking to this Belligerent it's getting you-all no were so Ignore List him till Ian BANS his ass

I'd say it was a good idea, but this kind of thing needs to be sorted.

Eleven11: if you want to remain on this board for any length of time, you need to learn to accept the following:
a) people can have legitimate reasons for holding a differing opinion to yourself.
b) criticism, rather than necessarily being an attack on you personally, should be examined dispassionately, and responded to likewise.
b) when challenged on an assertion, it helps to be able to provide hard evidence for your claims, rather than just saying "well, it could have happened" (here, I am specifically referring to the question of German Manhattan Project spies).

I hope that this whole episode has been an aberration, rather than your normal attitude towards debate and criticism.

EDIT:

Cheaper bombs, plenty of them. Why would some crackpots build a billion dollar superweapon and deploy it so high in the sky as to give the effect that a hundred or so B-29 had done it with conventional firebomblets (m-69)? The US had it's fleets of B-29 built and crews at the ready status when they said Hiroshima was bombed. In one case you spend less than one million dollars in the other you spend BILLIONS for the same job. Can you spell ripoff? 2 billion dollars to destroy 6 sq kms of residential/commercial paper and wood shacks? It's unbelievable, not one single military target.

I have now given up on you. I thought you were simply misunderstood, and not letting a bad idea go, but it has become clear that you're trying to 'prove' that the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima was, in fact, faked. In other words, you are a conspiracy theorist masquerading as an alternate history enthusiast.

Nice talking to you.

Well, actually, it's been unpleasant.
Bye-bye.

 

[Eleven11]

Assume

1) The bomb was dropped by a parachute (which it probably was not)

I never said there was a parachute.

2) That some fault prevents it from going off (very unlikely

But not impossible.

3) That the Japanese recognize the thing for what it was (Not all that likely)
Your racial prejudice is blinding your judgement. Do you recognize a Japanese car when you drive one?

It would still take a lot of effort to make it into a working bomb.

You think it is beyond the abilities of the Japanese to make a big effort? Man you are really talking through your hat.

It would still be 1 bomb. I do not see where the Japanese would get other fissile materieals

Where did the Paks, French, Britain, get theirs? The Japanese are very industrious in case you missed it. They are very big in semi conductors. The US has stopped manufacturing because they can't keep up.

Further Japan would have no means of air dropping it.

What makes you think the Japanese would be so dumb as to think dropping it from the air is the best or only option.

The basic facts of Japan's intolerable situation would remain the same.

I don't think so. I think the US losing a bomb over Jap soil would have been a total disaster for the US. The US citizens would overthrow their government so fast if they were hit with a nuke the US lost without a backup plan.

I wonder whether some deal allowing the Emporer to remain but the US to occupy might have been done (because the Japanese establisment would NOT want a Soviet controlled 'North Japan'.

What makes you think the Soviets would want to control Northern Japan?

Actually although there would be more casualties the ASB'S simply giving all the American nukes to Japan would not alter the outcome of World War 2 in the Pacific.

You are not factoring in all the variables. Yours is a pragmatic view of accomodation to the sets of lies agreed upon.

 

[Eleven11]

I'd say it was a good idea, but this kind of thing needs to be sorted.

Eleven11: if you want to remain on this board for any length of time, you need to learn to accept the following:
a) people can have legitimate reasons for holding a differing opinion to yourself.
b) criticism, rather than necessarily being an attack on you personally, should be examined dispassionately, and responded to likewise.
b) when challenged on an assertion, it helps to be able to provide hard evidence for your claims, rather than just saying "well, it could have happened" (here, I am specifically referring to the question of German Manhattan Project spies).

I hope that this whole episode has been an aberration, rather than your normal attitude towards debate and criticism.

You forgot to give me a good reason why I should give a rats ass what you say when you target me and look the other way at your members provocations. You want to take sides and show your personal bias then go fuck yourself bozo. You fucktards are taking this WAY too seriously. I must have struck a raw nerve.

 

[araraya]

need i say more

 

[Eleven11]

Post Reported- please don't respond to reasoned debate about your AH with insults, it is likely to garner you nothing but the wrath of Ian.

Guy's, this equine has expired, please stop the flagellation.

What are you, a web snitch, lol? What a loser. Another dumb board full of public schooled drones that can't think for themselves, boring and predictable brainwash drivel.

 

[kojak]

You forgot to give me a good reason why I should give a rats ass what you say when you target me and look the other way at your members provocations. You want to take sides and show your personal bias then go fuck yourself bozo. You fucktards are taking this WAY too seriously. I must have struck a raw nerve.

First of all, there is no need to be rude.

Second of all, the things we discuss in this forum are at least somewhat plausible and probable. What you're discussing is impossible, therefore you should take it to the ASB forums (that's what they are there for) rather than being so needlessly stubborn and insisting that such a scenario is possible.

 

[Eleven11]

First of all, there is no need to be rude.

Second of all, the things we discuss in this forum are at least somewhat plausible and probable. What you're discussing is impossible, therefore you should take it to the ASB forums (that's what they are there for) rather than being so needlessly stubborn and insisting that such a scenario is possible.

You or no-one else has proven my hypothetical scenario as impossible. Sure, lots of words were stretched to show it to be improbable but not impossible. The US had no backup plan for those bombs and that is reason to raise eyebrows. If that is insulting to you then tough luck. I am not here to rehash the lies agreed upon nor am I here to discuss genocide as some kind of gentleman's sport.

 

[Iamwinterborn]

You or no-one else has proven my hypothetical scenario as impossible. Sure, lots of words were stretched to show it to be improbable but not impossible. The US had no backup plan for those bombs and that is reason to raise eyebrows. If that is insulting to you then tough luck. I am not here to rehash the lies agreed upon nor am I here to discuss genocide as some kind of gentleman's sport.

I um.. kinda thought.. the fact that there would be no bomb for them to find due to gravity+height+bomb= no bomb, makes your theory impossible.

We have already told you the various backup plans.

At this point you have actually crossed the line between a kinda stubborn new member to a troll. This is my last post on this thread. Good-bye.

 

[The Militant One]

And Eleven11 has just shown himself to be a Crackpot Nipponwank who either doesn't believe Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened or believes that America, on the verge of defeating Japan, was so fragile that if anything went wrong, we American's would just say "screw it, we suck."

On that note... BAN HIM!!!


EDIT: Okay, I'll make you feel better, It would be impossible. And the American's did have a back up plan, a full scale Blockade-land invasion like that of D-Day and bombing raids that would make the Blitz seem like a summer shower. And because you are refusing to listen, I am done feeding the troll.

 

[Eleven11]

And Eleven11 has just shown himself to be a Crackpot Nipponwank who either doesn't believe Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened or believes that America, on the verge of defeating Japan, was so fragile that if anything went wrong, we American's would just say "screw it, we suck."

On that note... BAN HIM!!!

EDIT: Okay, I'll make you feel better, It would be impossible. And the American's did have a back up plan, a full scale Blockade-land invasion like that of D-Day and bombing raids that would make the Blitz seem like a summer shower.

Poor little whiner is so scared he has to shriek for banishment, what a dork. Why don't you impress the hell out of me with a reasoned reply for a change. You would have me believe the US would have shrugged and said to hell with it after giving the Japs a billion dollars superweapon. Your post shows that you don't know why the US did not have a backup plan. Better to say I am a crackpot then face that fact. Anyways if I am banned it is YOUR loss not mine. I have a million more ways to debunk that crock of lies you call a historical record.

 

[Douglas]

Eleven, I didn't go to public school.

Your scenario is crap.

Don't let the paradox hurt you too badly when Ian throws you out the door...

 

[Eleven11]

Col. Seaman speaking with Gen. Hull: "There is one of them that is ready to be shipped right now. The order was given Thursday and it should be ready the 19th...There will be another one the first part of September, then there are three definite. There is a possibility of a fourth one in September, either the middle or the later part...Probably three in October."

Of course you realize that this only proves that there was interest in creating the illusion that they had more. Have we ever seen these &quot;other&quot; bombs or seen the logistical charts to determine if they had the raw materials to start making more bombs. I'm sure even the mighty US is not a financial bottomless pit. How many more billions were they going to spend to burn grass in Japan? Why are they not using their B-29 planes, they were after all the largest war expense for the US. They worked well enough for all the other bombing and would have done fine for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.</p>

 

[Eleven11]

Eleven, I didn't go to public school.

Let me guess, you were tethered to the public curriculum at home? There has to be a reason why you have no imagination.

Your scenario is crap.

Explain. My scenario has many facets. Is this a blanket condemnation you are throwing around? Am I supposed to be impressed?

Don't let the paradox hurt you too badly when Ian throws you out the door...

Ian who? Is he academically-challenged like you? How do you know he won't kick you out instead?

 

[The Militant One]

Of course you realize that this only proves that there was interest in creating the illusion that they had more. Have we ever seen these &quot;other&quot; bombs or seen the logistical charts to determine if they had the raw materials to start making more bombs. I'm sure even the mighty US is not a financial bottomless pit. How many more billions were they going to spend to burn grass in Japan? Why are they not using their B-29 planes, they were after all the largest war expense for the US. They worked well enough for all the other bombing and would have done fine for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.</p>

*puts on his tin foil hat*

 

[Eleven11]

*puts on his tin foil hat*

Are you denying that the US could have easily bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki with their existing B-29 bombers using existing and trained crews for a small fraction of the bill for that military operation? If you are then you are not being rational.

 

[MrP]

Now, now, chaps. While it seemed possible that this all could be resolved at first, it's clearly gone too far now, and further conversation is feeding. So Ignore Lists, eh?