Lithuania in the German sphere

It is plausible. Methinks the Lithuanians would be beefed up with Czech and Polish captured equipment, like the Romanians were, but their contribution (probably in the range of 2 infantry division and a mechanised brigade) would really not turn anything. They'll be incorporated into the Soviet Union after Autumn 1944 anyway.
 

Markus

Banned
It is plausible. Methinks the Lithuanians would be beefed up with Czech and Polish captured equipment, like the Romanians were, but their contribution (probably in the range of 2 infantry division and a mechanised brigade) would really not turn anything. They'll be incorporated into the Soviet Union after Autumn 1944 anyway.

Ahh, there he is! Your presence is needed over here, a couple of people got questions only you can answer. see post 348 onwards.:)
 

Cook

Banned
but their contribution (probably in the range of 2 infantry division and a mechanised brigade) would really not turn anything.


I think their greatest contribution would be as the jumping off point for Barbarossa.

Lithuania would put the Germans nearly 300km closer to Leningrad , 200km closer to Moscow and they’d be in an even greater position to encircle Russian Forces in Eastern Poland. Which are probably a few of the factors that weighed on Stalin’s mind when he insisted on it going to the Soviet Sphere.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
And how many troops could the germans realistically have in Ukraine before Barbarossa; it still won't change that they have supply lines stretching all the way to Berlin and horrible logistics; IOTL, they had most of Congress poland and that still didn't bring them all that much.
 

Cook

Banned
And how many troops could the germans realistically have in Ukraine before Barbarossa; .

Huh?

it still won't change that they have supply lines stretching all the way to Berlin and horrible logistics; IOTL, they had most of Congress poland and that still didn't bring them all that much.

Geek, they did make it so close to Moscow that they could see the towers of the Kremlin. Starting 200km closer to Moscow may have got them there before the snows started.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
How many would? Lithuania in 1939 has a population under one million; how many soldiers could the region realistically support as is without requiring significant infrastructure preparations which will lead to the sae belatedness?
(my mistake I stupidly wrote Ukraine where I meant Lithuania)

From the eastern border of East Prussia to the eastern border of Lithuania, the distance is not 200 kilometres, but less than 100.

Besides, there's the problem of urban warfare after that, which will still chew up an exhausted german force at the end of its supply lines, snow or not, and added to that the simple fact that from Moscow to the Ural is another couple thousand miles. In fact, if it's not snowing yet, it's mud season.
 

Cook

Banned
How many would? Lithuania in 1939 has a population under one million; how many soldiers could the region realistically support as is without requiring significant infrastructure preparations which will lead to the sae belatedness?

I doubt they’d have contributed anything in the way of forces.
The value of Lithuania is as a jumping off point for part of the Northern Army Group; it’d halve their distance to Minsk and accelerate their arrival at Moscow.
And since they travelled over the exact same when they did invade I don’t see how they could be slowed by being further forward when they start.


From the eastern border of East Prussia to the eastern border of Lithuania, the distance is not 200 kilometres, but less than 100.

Besides, there's the problem of urban warfare after that, which will still chew up an exhausted german force at the end of its supply lines, snow or not, and added to that the simple fact that from Moscow to the Ural is another couple thousand miles. In fact, if it's not snowing yet, it's mud season

There seems to be a broad consensus that Germany was halted more by General Winter than by the Soviet Army in 1941.
 
I doubt they’d have contributed anything in the way of forces.
The value of Lithuania is as a jumping off point for part of the Northern Army Group; it’d halve their distance to Minsk and accelerate their arrival at Moscow.
And since they travelled over the exact same when they did invade I don’t see how they could be slowed by being further forward when they start.

We should add that Lithuania in the German sphere of influence earlier should allow for great development of the infrastructure here. In particular, I would expect the Nazis to greatly invest into the rail lines in Lithuania, making it not only a forward position for the invasion but also a forward position for supplies.

Yet another idea: the Lithuanians are not Slavs. Maybe the Nazis decide that Lithuanians are descendants of early Wiking/Nordic settlement? Could work in the crude racial theories of the Nazis and would allow to treat Lithuanians (and later also Latvians) as (almost) equals.
 

Cook

Banned
Yet another idea: the Lithuanians are not Slavs. Maybe the Nazis decide that Lithuanians are descendants of early Wiking/Nordic settlement? Could work in the crude racial theories of the Nazis and would allow to treat Lithuanians (and later also Latvians) as (almost) equals.

That actually was the case wasn’t it Monty?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I doubt they’d have contributed anything in the way of forces.
The value of Lithuania is as a jumping off point for part of the Northern Army Group; it’d halve their distance to Minsk and accelerate their arrival at Moscow.
And since they travelled over the exact same when they did invade I don’t see how they could be slowed by being further forward when they start.




There seems to be a broad consensus that Germany was halted more by General Winter than by the Soviet Army in 1941.

Lol, yes because obviously general winter was doing all the killing in Stalingrad and Leningrad: next you'll bring up human waves, right? That's also part of the broad consensus after all. Glantz of course disagrees on both points. "General Winter" is an excuse that primarily comes from the memoirs of german officers to excuse why they got their asses kicked in urban warfare by commie untermenschen. Both sides were fighting in that weather.

If anything, the muddy condition of russian fall are even worse, especially for the germans who are still predominantly horse drawn AND are not on home ground. So you have a POD where they somehow arrive while it's still fall: instead of freezing and being shot, they'll be starving and being shot, great. General Winter alone is not what gave the red army its impeccable urban warfare doctrines. And in Fall, trying to move tanks around Russia will suck terribly.

Also, racially, the germans were fairly loose with who was and who was not Aryan; to be faire there's this weird quirk of linguistics where indoeuropean in german becomes Indogermanisch, that probably explains in part why they were willing to treat the Iranians as more aryan than their slavic cousins.
 
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They treated collaborationist Cossacks as Goths who had migrated too far east. The Nazis were pragmatic when it came to the right time and person. Of course, ultimately it was still a far shot from a humane/intelligent policy.
 
They treated collaborationist Cossacks as Goths who had migrated too far east. The Nazis were pragmatic when it came to the right time and person. Of course, ultimately it was still a far shot from a humane/intelligent policy.

Indeed - Slovaks were Nazi allies, even though they are very similar to Poles.
 
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