Lithuania and Poland as Enemies

With a pod of 1200 AD is it possible for Poland and Lithuania to be enemies instead of allies how would that effect the two countries?
 
No Teutonic Knights, or at least none puttering around the Baltic. The Lithuanians remain pagan, the Poles become Catholic, the Poles try to convert the Lithuanians, fun stuff ensues.
 
Lithanians and Poles WERE enemies for quite some time. Lithuanians often raided Polish duchies, especially Masovia. I think imperialaquila is right - it was the Teutonic Order as common enemy that brought Poland and Lithuania together.
 
Lithanians and Poles WERE enemies for quite some time. Lithuanians often raided Polish duchies, especially Masovia. I think imperialaquila is right - it was the Teutonic Order as common enemy that brought Poland and Lithuania together.

No Teutonic Knights, or at least none puttering around the Baltic. The Lithuanians remain pagan, the Poles become Catholic, the Poles try to convert the Lithuanians, fun stuff ensues.

Perhaps the Silesian Piasts can take advantage of the situation of the Mazovian Piasts and the Lithuanians, like with the Silesian Piasts marrying with the house of Mindaugas and the later Gediminids and make the Lithuanians periodically raid the Duchy of Masovia and thus weakening them.
 
It seems there's an assumption that Lithuania and Poland can be only enemies OR allies, which is false, as OTL shows. And there easily might be a timeline in which - with surviving Piast dynasty - Lithuania & Poland crush Teutonic Order, and then Lithuania being conquered by Muscovy-Poland alliance.

Poland and Galitzia remain part of a surviving Anjou central european kingdom.
I don't see a point.
 
How about - after dealing with the Teutons to a sufficient level in 1410 or perhaps earlier, the forced alliance between Jagailo and Vytautas breaks down for good, Vytautas openly breaks down Krevo Union - and it is never restored for long?
 
How about - after dealing with the Teutons to a sufficient level in 1410 or perhaps earlier, the forced alliance between Jagailo and Vytautas breaks down for good, Vytautas openly breaks down Krevo Union - and it is never restored for long?

If Jogaila lost lithuania for good he might also lose the Polish throne, he gained the Polish throne because of the union of Krewo especially there are other claimants to the Polish throne like Sigismund, it will not help that he allied with the Hussites, I think it would help him if he accepts the Bohemian crown if he lost the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx
If Jogaila lost lithuania for good he might also lose the Polish throne, he gained the Polish throne because of the union of Krewo especially there are other claimants to the Polish throne like Sigismund, it will not help that he allied with the Hussites, I think it would help him if he accepts the Bohemian crown if he lost the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Even if Jogaila had lost Lithuania, Poles wouldn't have banished him, especially after Grunwald. Poland couldn't have afforded to loose a quite competent king. Who would have replaced him? Sigismund of Louxemburg, IIRC, was widely inpupular in Poland as being pro-Teutonic. No, thank you. I also have doubts about Jogaila accepting Hussite crown. Anti-Hussite opposition in Poland was strong and Jogaila had been born as a pagan and converted relatively recently. And he should have accepted a crown from heretics? No way. Poland for a very long time had fought against Teutonic propaganda accusing Poles of allying themselves with pagans. And now they were to unite with heretics? Tactical alliances were one thing, but accepting whole kingdom which rebelled against its king and against Catholic faith? The next crusade might march against Poland.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx


Even if Jogaila had lost Lithuania, Poles wouldn't have banished him, especially after Grunwald. Poland couldn't have afforded to loose a quite competent king. Who would have replaced him? Sigismund of Louxemburg, IIRC, was widely inpupular in Poland as being pro-Teutonic. No, thank you. I also have doubts about Jogaila accepting Hussite crown. Anti-Hussite opposition in Poland was strong and Jogaila had been born as a pagan and converted relatively recently. And he should have accepted a crown from heretics? No way. Poland for a very long time had fought against Teutonic propaganda accusing Poles of allying themselves with pagans. And now they were to unite with heretics? Tactical alliances were one thing, but accepting whole kingdom which rebelled against its king and against Catholic faith? The next crusade might march against Poland.
There is no reason for him to be King of Poland because he lost the the union which is the basis of his rule and most likely, Vytautas will ally with the Teutons once he falls out with Jogaila and rule Lithuania independently so I think Jogaila's days might be numbered.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx
There is no reason for him to be King of Poland because he lost the the union which is the basis of his rule and most likely, Vytautas will ally with the Teutons once he falls out with Jogaila and rule Lithuania independently so I think Jogaila's days might be numbered.

And who would take his place on Polish throne? Poland needed a king. Especially in case of Lithuanian/Teutonic alliance. That would be a very bad time to fire the present king (who rather will not go quietly) and start looking for a new one. Not to mention that there might be few candidates to rule such a rebellious country.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx


And who would take his place on Polish throne? Poland needed a king. Especially in case of Lithuanian/Teutonic alliance. That would be a very bad time to fire the present king (who rather will not go quietly) and start looking for a new one. Not to mention that there might be few candidates to rule such a rebellious country.

I think losing Lithuania, the marriage between Jogaila and Sophia of Halshany will be butterflied and I think Jogaila might use his daughter, Jadwiga as a marital pawn and marry her earlier to one of the Polish throne claimants just like what happened in the marriage of Elisabeth of Habsburg to Casimir IV which made them have a genealogical basis to their claim to the Polish throne rather than just the right of conquest and de jure uxoris, perhaps Jogaila might marry his daughter Jadwiga to a son of Sigismund of Luxembourg(if he sires one), a Hohenzollern (just like in OTL) or a Masovian Piast.
 
Siemowit IV of Masovia was a heir of Jogaila as he was married to his sister Alexandra and ha had quite a few sons with her.
Besides in 1410 the control of Vytautas on Lithuania wasn't absolute yet as there were many other Lithuanian princes which could be used against him if he wanted to secede from Poland.
 
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