List of Flops

[DominusNovus]

So, I was at wikipedia, and I came across this list of flops. Anyway, this stuff seems like gold for AH.

Particularly...

The Nazi Maus tank. The largest tank ever. Weighed in at a mere 188 tons (the Tiger II weighed 68). It never got used, but could have been good, if you didn't expect it to move much (a mobile pillbox).

But, of course, this wasn't enough for the Nazis. After all, if they had the balls to call the thing a Mouse, they had bigger plans.

The Ratte (3 guesses what that translates to). A 1000 ton tank. Now what if that got built?

Oh yeah. They wanted to build an even bigger one too. Geesh.

 

[Valamyr]

Now what if that got built?

In 1962, the "Wererat" - 4500 tons tank - is used in battle on the Eastern Front, after being assembled over there using hundred-tons pieces. Though its battleship-sized guns effectively shell cities at extreme range, after it got stuck in mud, a small team of soviet saboteurs managed to destroy the only unit ever produced. Hearing of the inability of the 6th and 7th SS sappers to even salvage the overly heavy metal from the mud, Ostkomissar-Reichsmarshall Heydrich has the plans to produce three other units scrapped.

Somebody, somewhere, gets shot for treason, and life goes on.

 

[Melvin Loh]

Other flops

What about the following weapons etc which were flops or never fully developed in OTL also ? What PODs could be facilitated for these toys to have been more effective ?
Ross rifle
Chauchat lightmachinegun
Mauser anti-tank rifle
Boys anti-tank rifle
Bell P39 Airacobra and P59 Airacomet
CAC Woomera light bomber
TSR2
Austeyr F88 assault rifle (my mate in the Army reserve back home reckons this standard 5.56mm assault rifle standard issue to the ADF is a piece of total junk given all the problems with fieldstripping, accuracy, etc)
Beretta M92 (you guys read about the Beretta's lack of stopping power when used by SOF operators in Afghanistan against AQ and Taliban fighters ?)

 

[Richard1978]

The P39 was much improved in later versions & the Red Air Force considered it to be the best bit of lend lease they ever got. The P59 was also highly rated.

 

[DominusNovus]

In 1962, the "Wererat" - 4500 tons tank - is used in battle on the Eastern Front, after being assembled over there using hundred-tons pieces. Though its battleship-sized guns effectively shell cities at extreme range, after it got stuck in mud, a small team of soviet saboteurs managed to destroy the only unit ever produced. Hearing of the inability of the 6th and 7th SS sappers to even salvage the overly heavy metal from the mud, Ostkomissar-Reichsmarshall Heydrich has the plans to produce three other units scrapped.

Somebody, somewhere, gets shot for treason, and life goes on.

They point out that, if a Maus ever got stuck, they'd need two other Maus' to pull it out.

 

[Landshark]

What about the following weapons etc which were flops or never fully developed in OTL also ? What PODs could be facilitated for these toys to have been more effective ?
Ross rifle
Chauchat lightmachinegun
Mauser anti-tank rifle
Boys anti-tank rifle
Bell P39 Airacobra and P59 Airacomet
CAC Woomera light bomber
TSR2
Austeyr F88 assault rifle (my mate in the Army reserve back home reckons this standard 5.56mm assault rifle standard issue to the ADF is a piece of total junk given all the problems with fieldstripping, accuracy, etc)
Beretta M92 (you guys read about the Beretta's lack of stopping power when used by SOF operators in Afghanistan against AQ and Taliban fighters ?)

Some of these were flops because they were by nature rubbish, most notably the Chauchat. The only way it could be more effective would be to produce a completely different disign in the first place.

As an Englishman I'm morally required to believe that the TSR2 was the finest aircraft ever built and was unjustly cancelled by evil and devious politicians in the pay of the Giant American Aerospace Industry Conspricy. Possibly a more logical POD would be for the F111A getting cancelled along with the F111B and the TSR2 picking up a licencing deal in the US.

As to the last two, yes I've heard both complaints before but I've also heard the AUG described as one of the best assault rifles extant so it would seem to be down to personal preference. The complaints about the lack of stopping power of the 9mm Parabelum always strike me, perhaps unfairly, as another symptom of the American big is best obsession. If some Americans had been in charge of the development of computers they'd still be the size of a room. The 9mm has been killing people just as successfully as the .45 for just as long and if the USArmy had switched from a .50 to a .45 in the eighties they'd have been whining their heads off about the loss of stopping power just as loudly.

 

[Brilliantlight]

If some Americans had been in charge of the development of computers they'd still be the size of a room. .

Who do you think WAS in charge of the development of computers? Santa Clause? The first electronic computer Eniac was developed for the US armed forces, the first micochip was developed in the US. Most computer chips in the world are made by Intel an American company.

 

[Landshark]

Who do you think WAS in charge of the development of computers? Santa Clause? The first electronic computer Eniac was developed for the US armed forces, the first micochip was developed in the US. Most computer chips in the world are made by Intel an American company.

I meant some is in a certain type of.

 

[Arch-Angel]

Well if the Nazis could get a bigger engine or a turbine engine like todays tanks who knows.

 

[DominusNovus]

Well if the Nazis could get a bigger engine or a turbine engine like todays tanks who knows.

Well, they wanted to use subermarine engines in those big dream tanks.

 

[Brilliantlight]

I meant some is in a certain type of.

I don't see what being American has to do with it. Some Russians (Actually more guilty of it historicaly), Germans and others think bigger is always better.

 

[nyudnik]

As the US marines in the Philippines in 1898 found out against the Muslim
terrorists of that era, and the US Special Forces are re-learning in Afghanistan today: against men who are determined to die, one can never have enough stopping power.

.38 revolvers then and 9mm Italian Beretta toys now are just not enough. Even a 10mm Glock is insufficient. Nothing less than the 11mm bone flattening impact of a Colt .45 (which was designed by Browning specifically to fell the Islamic Filipino Moros) has been found to drop with one-bullet assurance suicidal fanatical fighters who believe in an Afterlife and are determined to take men who fight to live with them.

Notice how even a 73 year old Yitzhak Rabin took two 9mm Beretta bullets in the spine and walked away as if unhurt!

 

[Hendryk]

Notice how even a 73 year old Yitzhak Rabin took two 9mm Beretta bullets in the spine and walked away as if unhurt!

You leave out the fact that he was dead a couple of minutes later.
Now I'm a neophyte, have never fired a shot in my life, and all I know about guns comes from books and RPGs (I mean the games, not the grenade launchers), so I'm hardly an authority on the subject. But from what I've read the lethality of 9 mm ammo has never been disputed by those who use it, although it is true that in terms of stopping power the .45 is in a league of its own (then there's the .50 Action Express, used in IMI Desert Eagles).

 

[Adam Parsons]

If we're looking for weapons that could have been develped more, how about the A7V Sturmpanzerwagen, the first tank the Germans developed in WWI? While they could dish out, and take more, damage than the Allied tanks of the time, they were slow, bulky, and the Reich didn't have enough manpower and resources to make enough to be decisive.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

As an Englishman I'm morally required to believe that the TSR2 was the finest aircraft ever built and was unjustly cancelled by evil and devious politicians in the pay of the Giant American Aerospace Industry Conspricy. Possibly a more logical POD would be for the F111A getting cancelled along with the F111B and the TSR2 picking up a licencing deal in the US.

The TSR.2 program management was one f*cked up business; I don't have details, but the few stories I've heard are in the very least depressing. Oh, they built a fine, even excellent, plane, but the whole project was so over budget and delayed that it made an easy target for politicians looking for a way to cut expenses(=reduce military budget).

 

[Jason]

The TSR.2 program management was one f*cked up business; I don't have details, but the few stories I've heard are in the very least depressing. Oh, they built a fine, even excellent, plane, but the whole project was so over budget and delayed that it made an easy target for politicians looking for a way to cut expenses(=reduce military budget).

Not quite true (my grandfather worked on the project). Yes went over cost but so did every other project of the period. The silly thing is when it was cut the money was spent, the first prototype had proved itself, the 2nd was ready to fly, three more were almost there and really all the program was waiting for was official approval and acceptance to build it properly. It was a far more capable aircraft than the F111 and would still be in service today. Having said that a lot of the TSR2 ideas and technology got reused in the Jaguar and in the early 1980s the UK Gov actually thought about relaunching the TSR2 program as a shortcut to a new combat aircraft before deciding to go with what became the Tornado. So instead of the TSR2 we got the Phantom, ok a good aircraft but nowhere as pretty (or good) as the TSR2

Another GB aircraft that should have been is the P1154 or a supersonic VTOL, killed off at the same time and at the same stage of development. On the plus side the cancellation resulted in the Harrier project (which my father worked on).

Also there was a rocket jet fighter we developed that should have been, was on the verge of becoming the standard figher for the UK and West Germany (and most probably most of the rest of NATO) when suddenly the Germans decided to buy (we now know were brided) the vastly inferior deathtrap called the Starfighter, which lead to the programme being cancelled-anyone remember what the rocket fighter was called?

 

[Hendryk]

Also there was a rocket jet fighter we developed that should have been, was on the verge of becoming the standard figher for the UK and West Germany (and most probably most of the rest of NATO) when suddenly the Germans decided to buy (we now know were brided) the vastly inferior deathtrap called the Starfighter, which lead to the programme being cancelled-anyone remember what the rocket fighter was called?

Are you referring to the BAC Lightning? That plane was, from what I've read, highly maintenance-intensive, but it was a fast bastard, and even managed to outclimb a F-15 Eagle years after being decommissioned.

 

[Jason]

Are you referring to the BAC Lightning? That plane was, from what I've read, highly maintenance-intensive, but it was a fast bastard, and even managed to outclimb a F-15 Eagle years after being decommissioned.

No wasn't the Lighting, one hell of a beautiful aircraft and like you same high-maintenance and fats (sounds like an ex). I think it was pre-Lightning, used a rocket to launch and get up high for interception and then switch over to a normal jet engine. There were ideas for a naval version as well.

 

[Landshark]

Saunders-Roe (SARO) SR177.

SR177 Article

 

[George Carty]

Are you referring to the BAC Lightning? That plane was, from what I've read, highly maintenance-intensive, but it was a fast bastard, and even managed to outclimb a F-15 Eagle years after being decommissioned.

The Lightning didn't sell well abroad as it was essentially a latter-day Messerschmitt 163 - designed to streak up to altitude as fast as possible to knock down incoming Soviet bombers. You don't need range to defend the UK.

As for TSR-2, it is widely speculated that the new Labour government cancelled it under pressure from the US...