List of Alternate Presidents and PMs II

[Oppo]

Where is the line when it comes to current politics? Stephen Harper isn’t a pressing political issue in Canadian politics. A good amount of people on the board weren’t even alive when Pat Buchanan ran for elected office, and he’s considered too current. I’d argue Margaret Thatcher or Karl Marx are way more significant to modern politics than Harper or Buchanan are, but it would be completely stupid to ban them from being used in alternate history content. If you keep coming out of nowhere and saying random people are too political for use, no one is going to want to post lists here.

 

[Kermode]

Pretty surew Harper is very much still active in Canadian politics. As that is the case he falls under "current politics".

Cal, I have to say this confuses me. Harper's been out of office for five years, wasn't even a candidate in the last election, and the Conservative Party is soon to elect his second successor; I don't think many people would regard him as being active in Canadian politics today.

The ban on "current politics" is sensible, but exactly what that means seems to have become more expansive and nebulous over the years. I think you would save a lot of headaches, on everyone's end, to lay out exactly what that means and where the line is.

 

[CalBear]

Cal, I have to say this confuses me. Harper's been out of office for five years, wasn't even a candidate in the last election, and the Conservative Party is soon to elect his second successor; I don't think many people would regard him as being active in Canadian politics today.

The ban on "current politics" is sensible, but exactly what that means seems to have become more expansive and nebulous over the years. I think you would save a lot of headaches, on everyone's end, to lay out exactly what that means and where the line is.

If that is the case then its all good. As you can see in the first sentence, typo included, I say that I was pretty sure Harper was still very much in the mix. If he is long out, and none of the other folks listed are in the mix, then its all good.

 

[CalBear]

This thread is full of lists that include current politics. Not trying to violate the rules, but when did that start to affect lists in this thread?

The POD is 2012. Also since Harper is no longer an elected MP, I'd debate whether or not he's active. He's not the central focus on this list.

The definition is not mine, it is Ian's, and it has been very consistent.

As far as the specifics on Harper, as I outlined above I used the phrase pretty sure. If he is out, and provided none of the other players are now in the game, then it isn't current politics.

As far as why so few threads are being reviewed, that is 100% up to who gets reported. We review every report. Every last one of them. If a post isn't reported, the odds are 99%+ than no Mod will ev er see it. The only exceptions are threads where one or more of us happen to be active as participants. The other side of this, of course, is that if every other post in a thread requires Mod intervention, than the issue is with the thread. That happened with a couple of the Star Trek threads a few years back and the answer was to turn off the spigot.

 

[CanadianTory]

The definition is not mine, it is Ian's, and it has been very consistent.

As far as the specifics on Harper, as I outlined above I used the phrase pretty sure. If he is out, and provided none of the other players are now in the game, then it isn't current politics.

As far as why so few threads are being reviewed, that is 100% up to who gets reported. We review every report. Every last one of them. If a post isn't reported, the odds are 99%+ than no Mod will ev er see it. The only exceptions are threads where one or more of us happen to be active as participants. The other side of this, of course, is that if every other post in a thread requires Mod intervention, than the issue is with the thread. That happened with a couple of the Star Trek threads a few years back and the answer was to turn off the spigot.

Maybe it would be wise to move this thread, or rather have the next one posted in chat, as all the lists inevitably run into current politics. I'm not saying that for you to do, simply anyone who is reading this and would be willing to start the next thread after six more pages (Especially since the originator of this thread has seen been banned).

 

[CalBear]

Maybe it would be wise to move this thread, or rather have the next one posted in chat, as all the lists inevitably run into current politics. I'm not saying that for you to do, simply anyone who is reading this and would be willing to start the next thread after six more pages (Especially since the originator of this thread has seen been banned).

An excellent idea.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

Maybe it would be wise to move this thread, or rather have the next one posted in chat, as all the lists inevitably run into current politics. I'm not saying that for you to do, simply anyone who is reading this and would be willing to start the next thread after six more pages (Especially since the originator of this thread has seen been banned).

That would be pretty annoying imo. I don't see it as that hard to just keep any current political figures out of these lists. That's why the chat version of this exists. If you want to make a list that has current politicians, then just go there. This thread is for those who like to make lists of older politicians who have been out of the political field for a LONG time, such as Henry Clay or Benjamin Disraeli. Heck, it doesn't even have to go that far back. We've had plenty of lists that include Nixon or Thatcher. Just keep the current political figures out of it. I don't think that's too hard of a thing to ask for.

 

[Excelsior]

Chat is a terrible forum for actual, non-discussion content because actual content gets buried between the dozens of threads of actual "chat". Plus with the disabling of likes, interaction between users has decreased. We have already the seen the current politics infoboxes thread drop in activity by a large amount since removing likes.

 

[The Lethargic Lett]

The Wilsonian Legacy Writ Large
Woodrow Wilson dies of his stroke in 1919, and the United States joins the League of Nations after President Marshall compromises with Congress. An idealized version of Wilson's presidency becomes the lasting legacy and aspiration of the Democratic Party. ITTL, everyone on this site loves Woodrow Wilson.

1913-1919: Woodrow Wilson (Democratic)
VP: Thomas Marshall
Def. 1912: Theodore Roosevelt/Hiram Johnson (Progressive), William Taft/Nicholas Butler (Republican)
Def. 1916: Charles Evans Hughes/Charles Fairbanks (Republican)

1919-1921: Thomas Marshall (Democratic)
VP: vacant

1921-1923: Warren G. Harding (Republican)
VP: Calvin Coolidge
Def. 1920: William Gibbs McAdoo/Franklin Roosevelt (Democratic)

1923-1929: Calvin Coolidge (Republican)
VP: vacant (1923-1925), Charles Dawes (1925-1929)
Def. 1924: Al Smith/Carter Glass (Democratic), Robert La Follette/Burton K. Wheeler (Progressive)

1929-1933: Herbert Hoover (Republican)
VP: Charles Curtis
Def. 1928: Al Smith/Joseph T. Robinson (Democratic)

1933-1937: Newton D. Baker (Democratic)
VP: Tom Connally
Def. 1932: Herbert Hoover/Charles Curtis (Republican)
Def. 1936: Alf Landon/Frederick Steiwer (Republican)

1937-1945: Tom Connally (Democratic)
VP: vacant (1937-1941), Sherman Minton (1941-1945)
Def. 1940: Robert Taft/Hamilton Fish III (Republican)

1945-1949: Sherman Minton (Democratic)
VP: Harry Truman
Def. 1944: Thomas Dewey/Earl Warren (Republican)

 

[CanadianTory]

That would be pretty annoying imo. I don't see it as that hard to just keep any current political figures out of these lists. That's why the chat version of this exists. If you want to make a list that has current politicians, then just go there. This thread is for those who like to make lists of older politicians who have been out of the political field for a LONG time, such as Henry Clay or Benjamin Disraeli. Heck, it doesn't even have to go that far back. We've had plenty of lists that include Nixon or Thatcher. Just keep the current political figures out of it. I don't think that's too hard of a thing to ask for.

Honestly do whatever you want. Your response reminds me of the posts in the old wikibox threads calling for a separate thread for election-based infoboxes, with the premise partly being that election-based boxes were somehow lesser compared to non-election based ones.

Somehow moving this thread to chat ruins everything for you, even though technically nothing would prevent you from posting the type of lists you’re posting now?

Figure it out, thread. You’re all adults here. You should be able to do it. After having gone through this all before in the infobox threads, I just don’t give a shit anymore about this dumb debate.

You can reply this this comment if you want, but don’t expect a reply back.

 

[Duke of Hamilton]

Prime Ministers of America:
1798-1812: John Adams, 1st Duke of Boston (Whig)
1812-1813: Aaron Burr (Tory)
1813-1825: James Monroe (Whig)
1825-1830: John Adams, 2nd Duke of Boston [1] (Whig)
1830-1838: Martin van Buren (Tory)
1838-1842: Daniel Webster (Whig)
1842-1852: Martin van Buren (Liberal-Conservative)
1852-1855: Franklin Pierce (Liberal-Conservative)
1855-1862: Martin van Buren (Liberal-Conservative)
1862-1868: Charles Adams, 3rd Duke of Boston (Liberal-Conservative)
1868-1874: Henry Wilson (Liberal-Conservative)
1874-1876: Michael Kerr (Kerrite)
1876-1882: Samuel Randall (Kerrite)
1882-1891: John Carlisle (Conservative)
1891-1894: Charles Crisp (Conservative)
1894-1910: Joseph Cannon (Liberal)
1910-1915: Charles Clark (Conservative)
1915-1925: John Weeks (Conservative)
1925-1926: Nicholas Longworth (Conservative)
1926-1930: Charles Curtis (Conservative)
1930-1944: Cordell Hull (Liberal)
1944-1946: Harry Truman (Liberal)
1946-1950: Arthur Vandenberg (Conservative)
1950-1954: Joseph Martin (Conservative)
1954-1968: Lyndon Johnson (Liberal)
1968-1970: Hubert Humphrey (Liberal)
1970-1974: Gerald Ford (Conservative)
1974-1978: Morris Udall (Liberal)
1978-1986: Richard Nixon (Conservative)
1986-1987: Gary Hart (Liberal)
1987-1987: Jim Wright (Liberal)
1987-1994: Joe Biden (Liberal)
1994-1998: Newt Gingrich (Conservative)
1998-1998: Trent Lott (Conservative)
1998-2006: Dennis Hastert (Conservative)
2006-2008: Harry Reid (Liberal)
2008-2010: Tim Kaine (Liberal)
2010-2015: John McCain (Conservative)
2015-present: John Bush (Conservative)

[1] The 2nd Duke of Boston was known under the courtesy title of Lord Adams before he entered the House of Lords in 1826.

 

[Kermode]

If that is the case then its all good. As you can see in the first sentence, typo included, I say that I was pretty sure Harper was still very much in the mix. If he is long out, and none of the other folks listed are in the mix, then its all good.

I guess my question is just: does the rule forbid any mention of any current officeholder, or is there leeway for context? For example:

1. A list with Prime Minister Mike Lake-- someone who, IOTL, is an obscure backbencher, and exceedingly unlikely to start any heated discussions.
2. Justin Trudeau is here-- but he's leading an also-ran fourth party, and he's not a major part of the story (just an off-hand mention for some flavour).
3. Several moderately-well-known figures are mentioned-- but there's a POD cycles ago, and the surrounding context of their actions is very different (if far enough back, they may not even act like the people we know).

My understanding of "no current politics" has always been not that "anything that brushes against the modern day is verboten", but "the TL (or list, or wikibox, etc) must be able to be discussed without relitigating current political debates". So, a "Hilary wins 2016" is current politics because that's a scenario that cannot reasonably be discussed without comparing/contrasting the outcome to what has actually happened in the world, and musing about how certain events and debates would have played out differently. But, "Romney wins 2012 and 2016, and 2020 sees the election of a Sherrod Brown/Hilda Solis ticket" is OK because though all of them are current officeholders, their success suggests a significantly different political landscape to OTL, and that can be discussed without being a thinly-veiled debate about the current state of things.

I apologize if this comes off like rules-lawyering, but I am genuinely confused and concerned about the extent of this, because sometimes I write stuff that bumps up against "current politics" and I want to be sure I'm still on the right side of the line.

 

[Persephone]

The Wilsonian Legacy Writ Large
Woodrow Wilson dies of his stroke in 1919, and the United States joins the League of Nations after President Marshall compromises with Congress. An idealized version of Wilson's presidency becomes the lasting legacy and aspiration of the Democratic Party. ITTL, everyone on this site loves Woodrow Wilson.

I fear no man, but this...this scares me.

 

[CalBear]

I guess my question is just: does the rule forbid any mention of any current officeholder, or is there leeway for context? For example:

1. A list with Prime Minister Mike Lake-- someone who, IOTL, is an obscure backbencher, and exceedingly unlikely to start any heated discussions.
2. Justin Trudeau is here-- but he's leading an also-ran fourth party, and he's not a major part of the story (just an off-hand mention for some flavour).
3. Several moderately-well-known figures are mentioned-- but there's a POD cycles ago, and the surrounding context of their actions is very different (if far enough back, they may not even act like the people we know).

My understanding of "no current politics" has always been not that "anything that brushes against the modern say is verboten", but "the TL (or list, or wikibox, etc) must be able to be discussed without relitigating current political debates". So, a "Hilary wins 2016" is current politics because that's a scenario that cannot reasonably be discussed without comparing/contrasting the outcome to what has actually happened in the world, and musing about how certain events and debates would have played out differently. But, "Romney wins 2012 and 2016, and 2020 sees the election of a Sherrod Brown/Hilda Solis ticket" is OK because though all of them are current officeholders, their success suggests a significantly different political landscape to OTL, and that can be discussed without being a thinly-veiled debate about the current state of things.

I apologize if this comes off like rules-lawyering, but I am genuinely confused and concerned about the extent of this, because sometimes I write stuff that bumps up against "current politics" and I want to be sure I'm still on the right side of the line.

While the "rules lawyering" is pretty strong here, the question deserves an answer. The policy is extremely simple. if you can not discuss it without there being a very high probability of the discussion requiring current politics or creating a current political debate outside of Chat, it is Current politics. To use your example, bringing up either of the major 2016 elections, namely Brexit and/or the U.S. General election is a mortal lock to start a current politics debate. It is much less likely that changing who won the DA race in Dutch Harbor, AK will do so.

 

[Persephone]

Cohn in the Tail-Gunner's Seat
(an absolutely cursed list inspired by, among other things, statichaos' AWOLAWOT)

1952-1953: Robert A. Taft/Joseph "Joe" McCarthy (Republican)
1953-1956: Joseph "Joe" McCarthy/Vacant (Republican)
1956-1960: Joseph "Joe" McCarthy/Styles Bridges (Republican)
1960-1968: John C. Stennis/John "Jack" Fitzgerald Kennedy (Democrat)
1968-1972: Nelson Rockefeller/Roy Cohn (Republican)
1972-1980: Roy Cohn/Spiro Agnew (Republican)
1980-1984: Jimmy Carter/Walter Mondale (Democrat)
1984-1988: Walter Mondale/Geraldine Ferraro (Democrat)
1988-1996: Theodore Robert Cowell/Donald Rumsfeld (Republican)

 

[Nintendogamemaster]

Paralelism with Political Show Characters
1977-1981: D.Wire Newman/Bill McKay
1981-1989: Owen Lassiter/Bob Rumson
1989-1993: Bob Rumson/Robert Ritchie
def 1988. Andrew Shepherd/Warren Keaton
1993-2001: Jed Bartlet/Bob Russell
def.1992. Bob Rumson/Robert Ritchie
def 1996. Bob Rumson/Nathan Templeton
2001-2009: Robert Ritchie/Arnold Vinick
def 2000. Bob Russell/Eric Baker
def 2004. Michael Kern/John Hoynes
2009-2017: Matt Santos/Jim Matthews
def 2008. Arnold Vinick/Mackenzie Allen
def 2012. Fitzgerald Grant/Jeff Heffley
2017-2021: Hollis Doyle/Sally Langstone
def 2016. Selina Meyer/Frank Underwood
2021-Present: Donald Blythe/Kemi Talbot (I know I should have chosen Matthews, but I wanted some variation, so I went for Blythe)
def 2020. Hollis Doyle/Sally Langstone

 

[Masteroftheuniverse]

Maybe it would be wise to move this thread, or rather have the next one posted in chat, as all the lists inevitably run into current politics. I'm not saying that for you to do, simply anyone who is reading this and would be willing to start the next thread after six more pages (Especially since the originator of this thread has seen been banned).

There is already a thread for lists that involve current politics.

 

[Ventriloquist]

Make a Current Politics PODs forum, move the Current Politics list thread (and any other Current Politics TLs) there, and then Chat can be about Chat again. Easy.

 

[captainchicken6034]

1981-1985 Gerald Ford/Jack Kemp
1985-1993 Jack Kemp/Howard Baker
1993-2001 Mario Cuomo/Al Gore
2001-2009 John McCain/Tom Ridge
2009-2017 Howard Dean/Barack Obama
2017-present Barack Obama/Elizabeth Warren

 

[SandroPertini98]

US Presidents in Terminator TL, Original TL (Terminator 1 and 2):
40 California Governor Ronald Wilson Reagan/ Fomer CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush from Texas 1981-1989
41 Vice-president George Herbert Walker Bush from Texas/ Indiana Senator James Danforth "Danny" Quayle 1989-1993
42 Arkansas Governor William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton/ Tennessee Senator Albert Arnold Gore Jr 1993-2004 [Evacuated in the Cheyenne Mount Complex during the Judgment Day and survived, he tried in vain to assure a governor continuity and organize a resistance against Skynet. Distressed, he died by a heart attack]
43 Vice-president Albert Arnold Gore Jr from Tennessee/ Vacant 2004-2007 [He tried to continue the fight but the Cheyenne Bunker is finally tracked down and broken by Skynet's Terminators, who killed him]
Vacant 2007-2024
John Connor from California as Human Resistance Leader 2024-2033 [He defeated Skynet around 2029]
44 Human Army Commander John Connor from California/ No one [Vicepresidency abolished] 2033-...

First Alternate TL (Terminator 3, 4):
40 California Governor Ronald Wilson Reagan/ Former CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush from Texas 1981-1989
41 Vice-president George Herbert Walker Bush from Texas/ Indiana Senator James Danforth "Danny" Quayle 1989-1993
42 Arkansas Governor William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton/ Tennessee Senator Albert Arnold Gore Jr 1993-2001
43 Texas Governor George Walker Bush/ Former Secretary of Defense Richard Bruce "Dick" Cheney 2001-2009/ Vacant 2009-2014 [Evacuated after the Judgment Day, he failed to stop Skynet. After Cheney, the real mastermind of the last US forces, died by heart attack, he is finally killed by Terminators]
Vacant 2014-2015
Hugh Ashdown from California as Human Resistance Leader 2015-2018
John Connor from California as Human Resistance Leader 2018-2032
Lonnie Barnes from California as Human Resistance Leader 2032-...

Second Alternate TL (Terminator 5) as Our TL

Third Alternate TL (Terminator 6):
42 Arkansas Governor William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton/ Tennessee Senator Albert Arnold Gore Jr 1993-2001
43 Texas Governor George Walker Bush/ Former Secretary of Defense Richard Bruce "Dick" Cheney from Wyoming 2001-2009
44 Illinois Senator Barack Hussein Obama/ Delawere Senator Joseph Robinette Biden III 2009-2017
45 Businessman Donald John Trump Sr from New York/ Indiana Governor Michael Richard "Mike" Pence 2017-2023 [Reelected in a controversial election after a chaotic massacre at Mexican border, caused by Ramos' group fighting with Terminator. Killed by Legion during the Nuclear Apocalypse]
Vacant 2023-2028
Daniella "Dani" Ramos as Human Resistance Leader 2028-... [At least until 2042]