shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
@Alex Richards and @The Red tried, if I'm remembering correctly.
Otherwise just stick to If Gordon Banks Had Played.
List of Alternate Presidents and PMs II
- Thread starter Asami
- Start date
- Status
Otherwise just stick to If Gordon Banks Had Played.
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
That would mean the thing he prophesied exists and isn't face down and dead in the water.
I wouldn't say it was a shit TL, I found it quite fun to read it. Though the white supremacy and the uber-wank nature of TL is bad.
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
It was an 'interesting' concept (in the sense it was interesting until you actually looked into the PoD and Enoch himself), but otherwise it was poorly written and heavily divergent drivel.
Don't get me wrong, the whole premise is questionable at best; Cumbria seems to have an idea that Powell was some sort of culture warrior, which he was not. Plus the idea of Britain going it alone, especially in the wake of the seventies, is highly implausible.
I love that TL, but it's always come across to me as simply saying 'The Tories are evil' multiple times. Well I agree a Powell premiership wouldn't be all roses, I dispute the suggestion that the creation of a police state or pseudo form of it, would occur under him.
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
I'll admit, I'm very tempted to have my own spin on the 'If Banks Played' concept, if only because I felt there was a lot in the TL that is now a case of 'now we know this information was wrong/this figure had intended [x]'.
Oppo - No Electoral Majority in 1980
Based off of this article by The Atlantic in October 1980, what would happen if there is no electoral majority in the 1980 election? Basically, Mondale becomes Acting President but is assassinated by John Hinckley for that added FL&G factor. Tip O'Neil serves until the 1982 elections. Anger over the deadlock causes the Republicans to take the House and Senate. Ronald Reagan is chosen over Carter and Anderson in the House, and Bush is chosen over Lucey. With the Reagan administration's response to the recession unpopular, Dale Bumpers wins the Presidency as a moderate.
1981: Vacant/Walter Mondale (Democrat)
1980: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican), Jimmy Carter/Walter Mondale (Democrat), John Anderson/Pat Lucey (Independent)
1981-1983: Vacant/Tip O'Neil (Democrat)
1983-1985: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican)
1985-1993: Dale Bumpers/Scott Matherson (Democrat)
1984: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican), John Anderson/Edward Brooke (National Unity)
1988: George Deukmejian/James Thompson (Republican)
1993-1997: Caroll Campbell/Pete Domenici (Republican)
1992: Scott Matherson/Richard Reily (Democrat)
1997-2005: Kurt Schmoke/Ted Mondale (Democrat)
1996: Caroll Campbell/Pete Domenici (Republican)
2000: Pete Domenici/Orrin Hatch (Republican)
2005-2013: Ted Mondale/Frank Pallone (Democrat)
2004: George Allen/George Pataki (Republican)
2008: Susana Terrell/John Sununu (Republican)
2013-2021: George LeMiex/John Kennedy (Republican)
2012: Frank Pallone/Ned Lamont (Democrat), Matt Gonzalez/Al Sharpton (New Alliance)
2016: Chris Coons/Alexi Giannoulias (Democrat)
2021-Present: Carte Goodwin/Joe Kennedy (Democrat)
2020: John Kennedy/Sam Brownback (Republican)
1981: Vacant/Walter Mondale (Democrat)
1980: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican), Jimmy Carter/Walter Mondale (Democrat), John Anderson/Pat Lucey (Independent)
1981-1983: Vacant/Tip O'Neil (Democrat)
1983-1985: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican)
1985-1993: Dale Bumpers/Scott Matherson (Democrat)
1984: Ronald Reagan/George Bush (Republican), John Anderson/Edward Brooke (National Unity)
1988: George Deukmejian/James Thompson (Republican)
1993-1997: Caroll Campbell/Pete Domenici (Republican)
1992: Scott Matherson/Richard Reily (Democrat)
1997-2005: Kurt Schmoke/Ted Mondale (Democrat)
1996: Caroll Campbell/Pete Domenici (Republican)
2000: Pete Domenici/Orrin Hatch (Republican)
2005-2013: Ted Mondale/Frank Pallone (Democrat)
2004: George Allen/George Pataki (Republican)
2008: Susana Terrell/John Sununu (Republican)
2013-2021: George LeMiex/John Kennedy (Republican)
2012: Frank Pallone/Ned Lamont (Democrat), Matt Gonzalez/Al Sharpton (New Alliance)
2016: Chris Coons/Alexi Giannoulias (Democrat)
2021-Present: Carte Goodwin/Joe Kennedy (Democrat)
2020: John Kennedy/Sam Brownback (Republican)
WARNING EPIC SPOILERS AHEAD YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
The thing is: that's kind of not what it actually says at all. It's a thing heavy in accepting seventies, Wilsonian suspicions about the security services for dramatic purposes. There is a subplot running through the whole thing about the security services acting rogue even under Powell. A lot of what happens in that timeline are, so it's implied in the story, to be false flag operations. IIRC even the 'big events' are implied to actually be furthered by the security services in order to deliberately radicalise the situation. Powell himself at the very end actually rumbles this whole situation, and disrupts the final culmination, partly redeeming himself.
There are a lot of big, big liberties it actually takes with plausibility - we're somehow supposed to believe Wilson goes into coalition with Heath; yeah, nah - but I don't think the nasty evolution of Powell's government is actually one of them, but only when you consider the subtleties of the plot.
The thing is: that's kind of not what it actually says at all. It's a thing heavy in accepting seventies, Wilsonian suspicions about the security services for dramatic purposes. There is a subplot running through the whole thing about the security services acting rogue even under Powell. A lot of what happens in that timeline are, so it's implied in the story, to be false flag operations. IIRC even the 'big events' are implied to actually be furthered by the security services in order to deliberately radicalise the situation. Powell himself at the very end actually rumbles this whole situation, and disrupts the final culmination, partly redeeming himself.
There are a lot of big, big liberties it actually takes with plausibility - we're somehow supposed to believe Wilson goes into coalition with Heath; yeah, nah - but I don't think the nasty evolution of Powell's government is actually one of them, but only when you consider the subtleties of the plot.
Last edited:
True Grit - Wellstone Lives
Basically, I tried thinking of a fun/somewhat plausible Wellstone lives scenario, and it spiraled out from there. Maybe I'll revisit this in a TLIAW or something sometime.
Presidents of the United States:
2001-2005: George W. Bush / Dick Cheney (Republican)
def. 2000: Al Gore/Joe Lieberman (Democratic)
def. 2004: Wesley Clark/Tom Vilsack (Democratic)
2005-2005: Dick Cheney / vacant (Republican)
2005-2009: Dick Cheney / John Danforth (Republican)
2009-2013: Paul Wellstone / Brian Schweitzer (Democratic)
def. 2008: John McCain/Joe Lieberman (Republican)
2013-present: Al Gore / Brian Schweitzer (Democratic)
def. 2012: Rudy Giuliani/Rand Paul (Republican)
def. 2016: Mike Huckabee/Kelly Ayotte (Republican)
Essentially, Paul Wellstone avoids the plane crash that killed him IOTL, and the minor butterflies from that results in a different Democratic primary come 2004, wherein the main candidates at the end are Howard Dean (who Wellstone supports) and Wesley Clark (who a majority of the Democratic establishment reluctantly supports, despite his unpopularity among progressives). Clark wins the nomination, but proves to be a liability on the campaign trail (particularly due to his inconsistency on Iraq), meaning Bush wins a slightly larger victory than OTL.
Bush is assassinated in 2005 by Vladimir Arutyunian, and Cheney nominates the uncontroversial John Danforth as his Vice President. Cheney quickly proves to be unpopular; sending more troops into Iraq, the conflict proves to be far bloodier than OTL. More notably is the beginning of a war between Israel and Iran in 2007 following the latter's attempt at developing nuclear weapons, quickly bringing the United States into another war in the region. As it becomes clear that the wars are being somewhat poorly run and resources are being stretched too thin, public opinion generally turns against them. Cheney's popularity, already low, further declines, leading to his announcement that, as expected, he will not contest the 2008 election.
The surge in anti-war sentiment and progressive protests against the administration convinces a reluctant Wellstone to run for President, at the urging of his progressive colleagues in the senate (Bernie Sanders and Russ Feingold among them), despite his worsening health (although at this point still okay given the circumstances) as a result of his multiple sclerosis. Establishment Democrats find their support divided between Obama and Clinton early in the primaries, allowing Wellstone to take advantage of the split vote and win key early states (Iowa and New Hampshire among them) in the primaries. With the momentum on his side and a far more passionate base of supporters, Wellstone is able to narrowly defeat Clinton to win the nomination following Obama's withdrawal, subsequently choosing Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer as his running mate.
Wellstone's nomination, and the perception that he's somewhat of a radical, allows McCain to take the lead in polling, despite the unpopularity of the Cheney administration. Hoping to take advantage of Wellstone's troubles with centrists, McCain taps Joe Lieberman as his running-mate to appeal to moderates. This does more harm than good, though, as the pick outrages conservatives, who instead plan to stay home on Election Day. The onset of the recession further harms McCain, allowing Wellstone to win a narrow victory. His government proves to be somewhat mediocre; although he is able wind down the wars in Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq, increase the tax rates on the wealthy, and introduce universal health care, most of his proposals (like the latter two) are watered down by Congress or, in the case of such things as increased gun control, ignored entirely. More notably, however, his first term sees a relatively rapid decline in his health, though this is largely kept out of the public eye. With Congress being somewhat uncooperative and with his health significantly worse than in 2008 and the stresses of the job only exacerbating its decline, Wellstone announces in late 2011 that we will not run for a second-term (ultimately passing away in 2014).
The 2012 Democratic nomination is fairly hectic, but ultimately ends up coming down to Schweitzer and Clinton (still in the senate at this point) in a race noted for the personal animosity between the two candidates. The race ultimately produces a deadlocked convention, and with Clinton and Schweitzer both steadfastly refusing to support the other the convention turns to a compromise candidate - specifically, former Vice President Al Gore. Appealing to both camps, and agreeing to both keep Schweitzer on as Vice President and name Clinton as Secretary of State in the event of his victory, Gore is ultimately able to win the nomination before defeating Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani in November. Gore's first term is defined by a strong focus on environmental issues, though he annoys progressives by increasing the presence of U.S. troops in the Middle East and Northern Africa. While the economy is still struggling by the time of the 2016 election, he's ultimately able to win re-election, thanks in part to a flawed Republican candidate in the form of Mike Huckabee.
Presidents of the United States:
2001-2005: George W. Bush / Dick Cheney (Republican)
def. 2000: Al Gore/Joe Lieberman (Democratic)
def. 2004: Wesley Clark/Tom Vilsack (Democratic)
2005-2005: Dick Cheney / vacant (Republican)
2005-2009: Dick Cheney / John Danforth (Republican)
2009-2013: Paul Wellstone / Brian Schweitzer (Democratic)
def. 2008: John McCain/Joe Lieberman (Republican)
2013-present: Al Gore / Brian Schweitzer (Democratic)
def. 2012: Rudy Giuliani/Rand Paul (Republican)
def. 2016: Mike Huckabee/Kelly Ayotte (Republican)
Essentially, Paul Wellstone avoids the plane crash that killed him IOTL, and the minor butterflies from that results in a different Democratic primary come 2004, wherein the main candidates at the end are Howard Dean (who Wellstone supports) and Wesley Clark (who a majority of the Democratic establishment reluctantly supports, despite his unpopularity among progressives). Clark wins the nomination, but proves to be a liability on the campaign trail (particularly due to his inconsistency on Iraq), meaning Bush wins a slightly larger victory than OTL.
Bush is assassinated in 2005 by Vladimir Arutyunian, and Cheney nominates the uncontroversial John Danforth as his Vice President. Cheney quickly proves to be unpopular; sending more troops into Iraq, the conflict proves to be far bloodier than OTL. More notably is the beginning of a war between Israel and Iran in 2007 following the latter's attempt at developing nuclear weapons, quickly bringing the United States into another war in the region. As it becomes clear that the wars are being somewhat poorly run and resources are being stretched too thin, public opinion generally turns against them. Cheney's popularity, already low, further declines, leading to his announcement that, as expected, he will not contest the 2008 election.
The surge in anti-war sentiment and progressive protests against the administration convinces a reluctant Wellstone to run for President, at the urging of his progressive colleagues in the senate (Bernie Sanders and Russ Feingold among them), despite his worsening health (although at this point still okay given the circumstances) as a result of his multiple sclerosis. Establishment Democrats find their support divided between Obama and Clinton early in the primaries, allowing Wellstone to take advantage of the split vote and win key early states (Iowa and New Hampshire among them) in the primaries. With the momentum on his side and a far more passionate base of supporters, Wellstone is able to narrowly defeat Clinton to win the nomination following Obama's withdrawal, subsequently choosing Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer as his running mate.
Wellstone's nomination, and the perception that he's somewhat of a radical, allows McCain to take the lead in polling, despite the unpopularity of the Cheney administration. Hoping to take advantage of Wellstone's troubles with centrists, McCain taps Joe Lieberman as his running-mate to appeal to moderates. This does more harm than good, though, as the pick outrages conservatives, who instead plan to stay home on Election Day. The onset of the recession further harms McCain, allowing Wellstone to win a narrow victory. His government proves to be somewhat mediocre; although he is able wind down the wars in Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq, increase the tax rates on the wealthy, and introduce universal health care, most of his proposals (like the latter two) are watered down by Congress or, in the case of such things as increased gun control, ignored entirely. More notably, however, his first term sees a relatively rapid decline in his health, though this is largely kept out of the public eye. With Congress being somewhat uncooperative and with his health significantly worse than in 2008 and the stresses of the job only exacerbating its decline, Wellstone announces in late 2011 that we will not run for a second-term (ultimately passing away in 2014).
The 2012 Democratic nomination is fairly hectic, but ultimately ends up coming down to Schweitzer and Clinton (still in the senate at this point) in a race noted for the personal animosity between the two candidates. The race ultimately produces a deadlocked convention, and with Clinton and Schweitzer both steadfastly refusing to support the other the convention turns to a compromise candidate - specifically, former Vice President Al Gore. Appealing to both camps, and agreeing to both keep Schweitzer on as Vice President and name Clinton as Secretary of State in the event of his victory, Gore is ultimately able to win the nomination before defeating Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani in November. Gore's first term is defined by a strong focus on environmental issues, though he annoys progressives by increasing the presence of U.S. troops in the Middle East and Northern Africa. While the economy is still struggling by the time of the 2016 election, he's ultimately able to win re-election, thanks in part to a flawed Republican candidate in the form of Mike Huckabee.
theev - S U C C E S S I O N
Deleted member 87099
S U C C E S S I O N
January 20 (12:00), 1961 - November 22 (12:30), 1963: John F. Kennedy (Democratic) 1
November 22 (12:30), 1963 - November 22 (13:03), 1963: Lyndon B. Johnson (Democratic) 2
November 22 (13:03), 1963 - November 22 (14:10), 1963: John W. McCormack (Democratic) 3
November 22 (14:10), 1963 - November 22 (14:28), 1963: Carl Hayden (Democratic) 4
November 22 (14:28), 1963 - November 22 (15:53), 1963: Dean Rusk (Democratic) 5
November 22 (15:53), 1963 - November 23 (2:35), 1963: C. Douglas Dillon (Republican) 6
November 23 (2:35), 1963 - November 23 (2:39), 1963: Robert McNamara (Republican) 7
November 23 (2:39), 1963 - November 23 (6:00), 1963: Robert F. Kennedy (Democratic) 8
November 23 (6:00), 1963 - January 20 (12:00), 1965: Stewart Udall (Democratic) 9
1 Shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas.
2 Shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas.
3 Died of a heart attack.
4 Died of a stroke.
5 Refused to take oath of office.
6 Accidentally shot by Secret Service while being defended from possible intruder.
7 Accidentally shot by Secret Service while being mistaken for possible intruder.
8 Declared missing after plane en route to Dallas disappeared over Arkansas at 16:01.
9 Completed term as President.
January 20 (12:00), 1961 - November 22 (12:30), 1963: John F. Kennedy (Democratic) 1
November 22 (12:30), 1963 - November 22 (13:03), 1963: Lyndon B. Johnson (Democratic) 2
November 22 (13:03), 1963 - November 22 (14:10), 1963: John W. McCormack (Democratic) 3
November 22 (14:10), 1963 - November 22 (14:28), 1963: Carl Hayden (Democratic) 4
November 22 (14:28), 1963 - November 22 (15:53), 1963: Dean Rusk (Democratic) 5
November 22 (15:53), 1963 - November 23 (2:35), 1963: C. Douglas Dillon (Republican) 6
November 23 (2:35), 1963 - November 23 (2:39), 1963: Robert McNamara (Republican) 7
November 23 (2:39), 1963 - November 23 (6:00), 1963: Robert F. Kennedy (Democratic) 8
November 23 (6:00), 1963 - January 20 (12:00), 1965: Stewart Udall (Democratic) 9
1 Shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas.
2 Shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas.
3 Died of a heart attack.
4 Died of a stroke.
5 Refused to take oath of office.
6 Accidentally shot by Secret Service while being defended from possible intruder.
7 Accidentally shot by Secret Service while being mistaken for possible intruder.
8 Declared missing after plane en route to Dallas disappeared over Arkansas at 16:01.
9 Completed term as President.
Japhy
Banned
As the guy who started having a fit in that thread it amazes me that so many people actually excused him and were angrily insistent that he wasn't a racist and that, contrary to the fact he'd never said anything of the sort that he had loudly and vocally declared he didn't agree with what was happening.
natemamate - Prime Ministers of Britain
natemamate
Banned
Prime Ministers of Britain
Ricky Gervais (Labor) 2019-2023
def. Theresa May
Albert Krichton (NRC) 2023-2023
def. Ricky Gervais
Nick Clegg (Liberal Democrats) 2023-Now
Ricky Gervais (Labor) 2019-2023
def. Theresa May
Albert Krichton (NRC) 2023-2023
def. Ricky Gervais
Nick Clegg (Liberal Democrats) 2023-Now
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
I can't tell what's worse, the misspelling of Labour, Ricky Gervais, the lack of footnotes or write up or even a basic premise, or Nick Clegg.
Joshua Ben Ari - Some Canadian PMs
Canadian Prime Ministers
1935-1948: William Lyon Mackenzie King (Liberal)
1948-1957: Louis St. Laurent (Liberal)
def. 1949: George Drew (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
def. 1953: George Drew (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
1957-1965: James Sinclair (Liberal)
def. 1957: John Diefenbaker (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
def. 1961: John Diefenbaker (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
1965-1970: Dufferin Roblin (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1965: James Sinclair (Liberal), Tommy Douglas (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Ralliement créditiste), Robert N. Thompson (Social Credit)
1970-1976: Paul Hellyer (Liberal)
def. 1970: Dufferin Roblin (Progressive Conservative), Tommy Douglas (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
def. 1974: Angus MacLean (Progressive Conservative), David Lewis (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
1976-1987: Angus MacLean (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1976: Paul Hellyer (Liberal), Rosemary Brown (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
def. 1980: Jean Chrétien (Liberal), Ed Broadbent (New Democratic), Ken Sweigard (Social Credit)
def. 1984: Donald S. Macdonald (Liberal), Ed Broadbent (New Democratic), Harven Lainson (Social Credit)
1987-1995: Flora MacDonald (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1987: John Turner (Liberal), Audrey McLaughlin (New Democratic)
def. 1991: Herb Gray (Liberal), Audrey McLaughlin (New Democratic)
1995-2005: Herb Gray (Liberal)
def. 1995: Flora MacDonald (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
def. 1999: John Crosbie (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
def. 2003: André Bachand (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
2005-2007: Martin Cauchon (Liberal)
2007-2015: André Bachand (Progressive Conservative)
def. 2007: Martin Cauchon (Liberal), Jack Layton (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
def. 2011: Martin Cauchon (Liberal), Peggy Nash (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
2015-incumbent: Peter MacKay (Progressive Conservative)
def. 2015: Theodore 'Ted' Hsu (Liberal), Peggy Nash (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
def. 2019: Theodore 'Ted' Hsu (Liberal), Mike Layton (New Democratic), David Chernushenko (Green)
1935-1948: William Lyon Mackenzie King (Liberal)
1948-1957: Louis St. Laurent (Liberal)
def. 1949: George Drew (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
def. 1953: George Drew (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
1957-1965: James Sinclair (Liberal)
def. 1957: John Diefenbaker (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
def. 1961: John Diefenbaker (Progressive Conservative), James Coldwell (Co-operative Commonwealth), Solon Earl Low (Social Credit)
1965-1970: Dufferin Roblin (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1965: James Sinclair (Liberal), Tommy Douglas (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Ralliement créditiste), Robert N. Thompson (Social Credit)
1970-1976: Paul Hellyer (Liberal)
def. 1970: Dufferin Roblin (Progressive Conservative), Tommy Douglas (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
def. 1974: Angus MacLean (Progressive Conservative), David Lewis (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
1976-1987: Angus MacLean (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1976: Paul Hellyer (Liberal), Rosemary Brown (New Democratic), Réal Caouette (Social Credit)
def. 1980: Jean Chrétien (Liberal), Ed Broadbent (New Democratic), Ken Sweigard (Social Credit)
def. 1984: Donald S. Macdonald (Liberal), Ed Broadbent (New Democratic), Harven Lainson (Social Credit)
1987-1995: Flora MacDonald (Progressive Conservative)
def. 1987: John Turner (Liberal), Audrey McLaughlin (New Democratic)
def. 1991: Herb Gray (Liberal), Audrey McLaughlin (New Democratic)
1995-2005: Herb Gray (Liberal)
def. 1995: Flora MacDonald (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
def. 1999: John Crosbie (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
def. 2003: André Bachand (Progressive Conservative), Lorne Nystrom (New Democratic)
2005-2007: Martin Cauchon (Liberal)
2007-2015: André Bachand (Progressive Conservative)
def. 2007: Martin Cauchon (Liberal), Jack Layton (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
def. 2011: Martin Cauchon (Liberal), Peggy Nash (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
2015-incumbent: Peter MacKay (Progressive Conservative)
def. 2015: Theodore 'Ted' Hsu (Liberal), Peggy Nash (New Democratic), Elizabeth May (Green)
def. 2019: Theodore 'Ted' Hsu (Liberal), Mike Layton (New Democratic), David Chernushenko (Green)
- Status