List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Here's my current list of potential grooms for Mary and Cecily:
John Oldenburg, King of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden
Francis Phoebus de Foix, King of Navarre
Gian Galeazzo Sforza, Duke of Milan
Any thoughts, feedback?
John to Mary, and Francis to Cecily makes sense.
Sforza's probably out, Edward did ditch his mom after all.
Mary in Denmark, Cecily in Navarre. Gian Galeazzo was engaged to his cousin Isabella of Naples when he was 10 and that match made much more sense than anyone else,
POD: Barbara Zapolya dies in 1513, thus Sigismund the (not yet) Old is widowed by the time of Congress of Vienna in 1515 and it is then, when his marriage to Eleanor Habsburg is decided (IOTL Max proposed her to Sigismund, but Charles opposed, ITTL Charles is not yet King of Spain by the time proposition is made and is less likely to oppose grandfather's decision).
Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
1) Anna (1516-1568) m. Francis I (1494-1547) King of France
2) Sigismund II (1518-1567) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1548, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1526-1578)
3) Elizabeth (1519)
4) Vladislaus (1521-1522)
5) Sophia (1524-1588) m. Charles Victor (1525-1577) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
6) Albert II (1527-1592) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1567, m. Maria Anna of Bavaria (1551-1608)
Next generation under construction.
I think this Philip is more likely to marry Maria of Portugal (b. 1521) than Dorothea.
I think Anna is more likely to wed the son of Sigismund the Old and Bona Sforza.
Ferrara is too low for Catalina tbh. I would expect a French proxy bride in Ferrara and Catalina can marry Charles of Savoy.
France and Ferrara have fallen out big time. They don't want a French bride, even supposing I had a French bride of a suitable age to hand.
But yes, I could swap Anna out for an English/Low Countries bride and send her to Poland, and the Phillip/Maria match does make sense.
POD: Barbara Zapolya dies in 1513, thus Sigismund the (not yet) Old is widowed by the time of Congress of Vienna in 1515 and it is then, when his marriage to Eleanor Habsburg is decided (IOTL Max proposed her to Sigismund, but Charles opposed, ITTL Charles is not yet King of Spain by the time proposition is made and is less likely to oppose grandfather's decision).
Next generation added:
Next generation added:
Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
1) Anna (1516-1568) m. Francis I (1494-1547) King of France1) John (1534-1586) Duke of Anjou, m. Henriette of Cleves (1542-1601)
2) Sigismund II (1518-1567) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1548, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1526-1578)
3) Elizabeth (1519)
4) Vladislaus (1521-1522)
5) Sophia (1524-1588) m. Charles Victor (1525-1577) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel1) Charles Henry (1548-1551)
2) Sigismund (1550-1604) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, m. Sibylle of Jülich-Cleves Berg (1557-1627)
3) Sophia (1552-1555)
4) Eleanor (1553-1607) m. Ferdinand (1529-1595) Archduke of Tyrol
6) Albert II (1527-1592) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1567, m. Maria Anna of Bavaria (1551-1608)1) Hedwig (1570-1572)
2) Sigismund III (1572-1631) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1595, m. Sophia of Austria-Tyrol* (1578-1640)
3) Vladislaus (1574)
4) Albert (1575-1601)
5) Alexander (1577-1633) Archbishop of Gniezno, Cardinal
6) Anna (1580)
7) Casimir (1582-1584)
* Daughter of Archduke Ferdinand and Eleanor of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
It doesn't. But Isabel Clara Eugenia was named after St. Eugenius and St. Claire of Assisi afterher mother prayed to them for a successful pregnancy. Another half-Habsburg princess at the time was named after her mom cried out to said saint while giving birth (think it was Anna of Austria with one of Felipe II's sons).
Considering that Miklos/Nicolas has five feast/name days (21 March, 10 September, 25 September, 13 November and 6 December). The kid could easily be born on one of them.
Saint Nicolas of Mysa (Santa Claus) is on December 6
Saint Nicolas of Tolentino is September 10
Saint Nicolas I the Great is November 13
Saint (Ni)Colette de Corbie on March 6. While Colette was only canonized in the 19th century had a strong following in the Low Countries. With such famous followers as BOTH Margaret of York AND Mary of Burgundy, BOTH of whom prayed to her for a child. Colette is the patron saint of childless women, women who wish to conceive and expectant mothers. Several of Colette's miracles performed in her lifetime had to do with childbirth/newborns.
It sounds weird to us simply because there never WAS a "King Miklos" OTL.
As to Mary being Lutheran sympathizer, she still dismissed her chaplain (a supporter of Luther) when the pope excommunicated Luther.
Still neither Clara nor Eugenia were Isabel's first names.
Elisabeth of Austria as a match for Poland was Sigmund Stary's desire. Anna was proposed for Severinus of Saxony (IIRC) who was beig raised at the court of Ferdinand I, with the intention that Moritz of Saxony go into the Church. Then, after Severinus died, Karl V offered her for the duc d'Angoulême, but finally she went to Bavaria thanks to the Treaty of Linz (I think it was) between the Habsburgs and the Bavarians about stamping out the Reformation and think there was something about the Tirolese silver mines in there as well
Well, it was, true, but it was mainly because she was:
a) Emperor's daughter
b) his brother's female-line granddaughter
In the TL he talks about, Ferdinand won't manage (most likely) to be elected emperor as second son of Charles V would get Burgundian inheritance and Vladislaus II would have male-line grandaughter, which is Anna he talks about.
Whatever Ferdinand proposed for any Anna existing IOTL is irrelevant, he simply talks about fictive person, daughter of Louis II of Hungary.
Elizabeth of Austria (daughter of HRE Ferdinand I) is more fortunate.
Elizabeth of Austria (1526-1587) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
1) Hedwig (1544-1591) m. John Frederick (1542-1600) Duke of Pomerania
2) Elizabeth (1546-1625) m. Philip Magnus (1527-1586) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
3) Sigismund III Ferdinand (1549-1596) m. Elizabeth of Austria (1554-1592)
5) Casimir (1552-1558)
6) Anna (1555-1576) m. Albert Frederick (1553-1618) Duke of Prussia
7) Alexander (1557-1599)
[1] are parents of [2]
Elizabeth of Austria (1526-1587) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
1) Hedwig (1544-1591) m. John Frederick (1542-1600) Duke of Pomerania
1) Elizabeth (1562-1639) m. Albert Frederick (1553-1618) Duke of Prussia
2) Bogislaw (1564-1569)
3) John Sigismund (1567-1619) Duke of Pomerania, m. Anna Catherine of Brandenburg (1675-1612)
4) Casimir (1569-1591)
5) Philip (1572)
2) Elizabeth (1546-1625) m. Philip Magnus (1527-1586) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
1) Elizabeth (1565-1621) m. Ferdinand (1529-1595) Archduke of Tyrol [1]
2) Philip Henry (1567)
3) Sigismund Augustus (1569-1624) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, m. Hedwig of Poland (1576-1628) see below
4) Catherine (1571)
5) Maximilian (1573-1578)
3) Sigismund III Ferdinand (1549-1596) m. Elizabeth of Austria (1554-1592)
1) Sigismund Maximilian (1574-1580)
2) Hedwig (1575-1628) m. Sigismund Augustus (1569-1624) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
3) Vladislaus (1577-1578)
4) Alexander II (1578-1640) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1596, m. Maria Elizabeth of Tyrol (1586-1630) [2]
5) Casimir (1580)
6) Elizabeth (1583-1629) m. Sigismund (1583-1626) Duke of Bari and Rossano, see below
4) Vladislaus (1550-1600) Duke of Bari and Rossano, m. Margaret Gonzaga (1564-1618)1) Sigismund (1583-1626) Duke of Bari and Rossano, m. Elizabeth of Poland (1583-1629)
5) Casimir (1552-1558)
6) Anna (1555-1576) m. Albert Frederick (1553-1618) Duke of Prussia
7) Alexander (1557-1599)
[1] are parents of [2]
Inspired by this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...nd-earl-of-rutland-survives-wakefield.507317/
Edward IV (b. 1442) m 1462 Marie of Brittany (b.1444)
Edmund, Duke of Clarence (b.1443) m. 1462 Jacqueline of Luxembourg (b.1446)
George, Duke of Cambridge (1449 - 1497), m 1471 Margaret Beaufort (b.1443)
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b.1452) m 1470 Anne Neville (1456-1485)
Notes: Edward and Marie both came from large families, but Marie seemed to have quite large gaps between her pregnancies judging from her list of kids, so I'm compromising and giving them kids two-three years apart...
We don't have a date of birth for Jacqueline of Luxembourg, so I picked one that worked for me.
George's title comes from Richard of Conisburgh's title, Earl of Cambridge, here elevated to a Dukedom, as befits the King's brother. George and Margaret Beaufort don't have any kids, so the Cambridge title goes back to the Crown after George's death in the fire at Sheen in 1497 and is given to Francis.
There is no restoration, because Warwick stays loyal, so Anne Neville never marries Edward of Westminster. She and Richard marry a little earlier and manage a couple more kids.
Neville tree coming up!
Edward IV (b. 1442) m 1462 Marie of Brittany (b.1444)
- Mary (1464-1479)
- Edward V (b.1466)
- Cecily (b.1469)
- Margaret (b.1471)
- Richard, Duke of York (b.1473)
- Edmund (1476 -1477)
- Elizabeth (b.1479)
- Francis, Duke of Cambridge (b. 1481)
- Anne (b. and d.1483)
Edmund, Duke of Clarence (b.1443) m. 1462 Jacqueline of Luxembourg (b.1446)
- Edward, Earl of Ulster (b. 1463)
- Jacquetta (1464-1466)
- Ursula (b.1467)
- William (1470-1474)
- Joan (b.1472)
- Thomas, Earl of Rutland (b.1471)
- Maud (1473-1474)
- Ralph (b.1476)
- Katherine (b.1478)
George, Duke of Cambridge (1449 - 1497), m 1471 Margaret Beaufort (b.1443)
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b.1452) m 1470 Anne Neville (1456-1485)
- Cecily (b.1472)
- Edward (1476-1484)
- Richard, Earl of Warwick and Salisbury (b.1479)
Notes: Edward and Marie both came from large families, but Marie seemed to have quite large gaps between her pregnancies judging from her list of kids, so I'm compromising and giving them kids two-three years apart...
We don't have a date of birth for Jacqueline of Luxembourg, so I picked one that worked for me.
George's title comes from Richard of Conisburgh's title, Earl of Cambridge, here elevated to a Dukedom, as befits the King's brother. George and Margaret Beaufort don't have any kids, so the Cambridge title goes back to the Crown after George's death in the fire at Sheen in 1497 and is given to Francis.
There is no restoration, because Warwick stays loyal, so Anne Neville never marries Edward of Westminster. She and Richard marry a little earlier and manage a couple more kids.
Neville tree coming up!
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In the same world as my previous tree:
Richard, Earl of Warwick (1428-1487) m. 1436 Anne Beauchamp (1426-1492)
1) Lady Isabel Neville (1451-1476) m 1469 Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham (b.1455)
Richard, Earl of Warwick (1428-1487) m. 1436 Anne Beauchamp (1426-1492)
1) Lady Isabel Neville (1451-1476) m 1469 Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham (b.1455)
- Humphrey, Earl Stafford(b.1470)
- Anne (b.1472)
- Miscarriage (1473)
- Isabel (b.1475)
- Henry (b.and d.1476)
- Cecily (b.1472)
- Edward (1476-1484)
- Richard, Earl of Warwick and Salisbury (b.1479)
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Nice! You should also post the trees to the Rutland thread.
Queen Victoria, b. 1819, r. 1837 to 1901, m. Albert of Saxe Coburg Gotha, Prince Consort (1819 to 1879) (i)
(ii) IOTL Victoria wanted Alexandra for Bertie and Dagmar for Alfred, neither exist here and both Danish princesses are too old for Arthur, so he ends up betrothed to Thyra instead who married the Crown Prince of Hanover IOTL.
(iii) As Leopold of Wales suffers from haemophillia and is, in general, a sickly child, the decision is made (largely by her grandmother) to marry the future Queen and Princess Royal to a cousin.
(iv) Given that Leopold is sickly and his father is the only male heir of the Prince Consort, when Ernest of Saxe Coburg and Gotha is clearly to be childless, the heir to the Duchy of Saxe Coburg and Gotha (by 1890) is Carlos I of Portugal, but he like OTL Edward VII abdicates his claim in favour of his brother, Afonso, Duke of Porto, who reigns in the Duchy as Henry
(v) Harald and Louise are first cousins, Harald's father is Louise's mother's brother, Frederick VIII of Denmark. IOTL, this happened with Queen Alexandra and Haakon VII of Norway
(vi) Given the absence of any ducal titles in the Danish monarchy or titles for second sons in the Duchy of Teck, and Louise being the second daughter of a monarch and without her own, upon his succession, Arthur creates his son-in-laws as the Duke of Connaught and Duke of Edinburgh respectively.
1) Victoria, Princess Royal, b. 1840, d. 1901, m. Frederick, Crown Prince of Prussia (1831 to 1888)
2) Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse (...), b. 1843, d. 1878, m. Louis IV, Grand Duke of Hesse (...) (1837 to 1892)
3) Helena of Schleswig Holstein, b. 1846, d. 1923, m. Prince Christian of Schleswig Holstein (1831 to 1917)
4) King Arthur, b. 1850, r. 1901 to 1942, m. Thyra of Denmark (1853 to 1933) (ii)
a) Queen Victoria II, prev. Princess Royal, b. 1879, r. 1942 to 1948, Alexander of Teck, 1st Duke of Connaught (1874 to 1957) (iii)
1) Queen Victoria III, b. 1906, r. 1948 to 1994, m. Prince Henry of the Netherlands
2) Arthur of Connaught, b. 1910, d. 1910
b) Princess Louise, b. 1882, d 1963, m. Harald of Denmark, 1st Duke of Edinburgh, (1876 to 1949) (v)
1) Louisa of Denmark, b. 1910, d. 1975
2) Victoria of Denmark, b. 1914, d. 1962
3) Harold of Denmark, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, b. 1923, d. 1990 (vi)
c) Leopold of Wales, b. 1885, d. 1901 (iv)
5) Beatrice, Duchess or Argyll, b. 1857, d. 1944, m. John Campbell, Duke or Argyll
(i) With no Bertie, there is no Nellie Clifton Affair and no mercy dash by Albert to dissuade his son from the affair, no pneumonia or typhoid fever and the Prince Consort lives for another eighteen years.(ii) IOTL Victoria wanted Alexandra for Bertie and Dagmar for Alfred, neither exist here and both Danish princesses are too old for Arthur, so he ends up betrothed to Thyra instead who married the Crown Prince of Hanover IOTL.
(iii) As Leopold of Wales suffers from haemophillia and is, in general, a sickly child, the decision is made (largely by her grandmother) to marry the future Queen and Princess Royal to a cousin.
(iv) Given that Leopold is sickly and his father is the only male heir of the Prince Consort, when Ernest of Saxe Coburg and Gotha is clearly to be childless, the heir to the Duchy of Saxe Coburg and Gotha (by 1890) is Carlos I of Portugal, but he like OTL Edward VII abdicates his claim in favour of his brother, Afonso, Duke of Porto, who reigns in the Duchy as Henry
(v) Harald and Louise are first cousins, Harald's father is Louise's mother's brother, Frederick VIII of Denmark. IOTL, this happened with Queen Alexandra and Haakon VII of Norway
(vi) Given the absence of any ducal titles in the Danish monarchy or titles for second sons in the Duchy of Teck, and Louise being the second daughter of a monarch and without her own, upon his succession, Arthur creates his son-in-laws as the Duke of Connaught and Duke of Edinburgh respectively.
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