List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

VVD0D95

Banned
Something I've been considering, thanks to @The_Most_Happy for listening as I bounced ideas off of her

Maximilian I of Mexico (b.1832: d.1892) m Carlotta of Belgium (b.1840: d.1920)

Issue:

Maximilian, Prince Imperial of Mexico (b.1864)

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Maximilian II, Emperor of Mexico (b.1864: d.1919) m Infanta Maria of Spain (b.1861: d.1923)

Issue:

Carlotta, Princess of Yucatan (b.1879)

Maximillian III of Mexico (b.1880)

stillborn daughter (b.1882: d.1882)

Isabella of Mexico (b.1884)

Alfonso of Mexico (b.1887: d.1900)

Francis José of Mexico (b.1891)
 
Wouldn't these titles be swapped? I thought the older brother would get the more important title.
No, Edward John is the son of Shrewsbury by his first marriage while Francis is his son by his second marriage. Brittany is Francis' maternal inheritance.
Exactly. Edward John is the son of Anne Mowbray, while Richard’s other children are born by Anne of Brittany. If you see the age gap between Edward of York and Francis of Brittany is pretty big
 
Edward IV decides against marrying a "Mere widow of England." So Enrique III takes the opportunity to get rid of his troublesome half-sister by making her Queen of England. Another part of the POD is that Isabella's only full sibling, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias isn't poisoned and marries their "Niece" to settle the succession dispute in Castile. I also think Isabella being in England during the Wars of The Roses to be interesting, as she'd give Margaret d'Anjou a run for her money....

Edward IV of England (b.1442, d.1490) (1) m. Isabella of Castile, Queen of England in 1466 (b.1451, d.1506) had issue
1) Elizabeth of York, Holy Roman Empress (b.1466, d.1518) m. Maximillian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459, d.1519) in 1483, had issue
2) Stillborn son (b.1468)
3) Edward, Prince of Wales, later Edward V of England (b.1471, d.1535) m. Anne of Brittany, Queen of England (b.1477, d.1514) had issue, including Edmund I of England (b.1495) second marriage to Susanna of Bavaria (b.1502, d.1543) had issue
4) Richard, Duke of York (b.1473, d.1492) m. Margaret of York, Suo Jure Duchess of Gloucester in 1490 (b.1475, d.1530) had issue, including Edmund, Duke of York (b.1490) and Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b.1492) (2)
5) Cecily of York, Queen of Scots (b.1475, d.1537) m. James IV of Scotland (b.1473, d.1533) had issue
6) Mary of York, Queen of Castile (b.1479, d.1539) m. Enrique V of Castile (3) (b.1482, d.1545) had issue
7) Eleanor of York, Queen of Denmark, and Norway (b.1479, d.1550) m. Christian II of Denmark and Norway(b.1481, d.1559) had issue
8) John, Duke of Somerset (b.1484, d.1557) m. Alice de la Pole, Suo Jure Countess of Lincoln (4) (b.1485, d.1549), had issue

(1) I imagine that Isabella would be much more concerned about her husband's gluttony than Elizabeth Woodville, and would try to curb it, thus he lives longer (Though if he still died in 1483 per IOTL, a clash between Isabella and her brother-in-law Richard would be interesting)
(2) Daughter of Richard Duke of Gloucester and Anne Neville, since Richard dies of illness in 1488 she inherits his lands, becoming the greatest heiress of all England and naturally marries her young cousin, until he dies of Tuberculosis.
(3) Eldest surviving son of Juana la Beltraneja I of Castile and her "half-uncle" husband Alfonso XII.
(4) Daughter and heiress of John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln, who dies in a hunting accident in 1488
 
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Though if he still died in 1483 per IOTL, a clash between Isabella and her brother-in-law Richard would be interesting
I think without Richard's fear of the rising power of the Woodvilles, he would be content with remaining Lord Protector while Isabel retains custody of her children. Isabel doesn't have a seemingly endless supply of relatives with which to sway his nephews like Elizabeth Woodville had and would be somewhat isolated. And just like Margaret of Anjou, Isabel would fiercely defend the rights of her son. Furthermore, both Richard and Isabel were intensely pious, so I think they actually would have gotten along pretty well.

I suppose Warwick could still betray Edward IV since Warwick was trying to retain his control over Edward partially by arranging the alliance with France through marriage (Bona of Savoy if I recall correctly), unless Edward and Warwick agreed that Isabel is a good compromise wife. Castile didn't bring much politically to England though and had it's own financial problems, but Isabel did bring generations of royal descent through John of Gaunt (both maternally and paternally) and thus Edward III.
 
I think without Richard's fear of the rising power of the Woodvilles, he would be content with remaining Lord Protector while Isabel retains custody of her children. Isabel doesn't have a seemingly endless supply of relatives with which to sway his nephews like Elizabeth Woodville had and would be somewhat isolated. And just like Margaret of Anjou, Isabel would fiercely defend the rights of her son. Furthermore, both Richard and Isabel were intensely pious, so I think they actually would have gotten along pretty well.

I suppose Warwick could still betray Edward IV since Warwick was trying to retain his control over Edward partially by arranging the alliance with France through marriage (Bona of Savoy if I recall correctly), unless Edward and Warwick agreed that Isabel is a good compromise wife. Castile didn't bring much politically to England though and had it's own financial problems, but Isabel did bring generations of royal descent through John of Gaunt (both maternally and paternally) and thus Edward III.
True, I think Isabel would be more likely to see a rival in Warwick rather than Richard. In fact, rather like her own mother did with Álvaro de Luna, she may be the one that provokes the break.
 
Edward IV decides against marrying a "Mere widow of England." So Enrique III takes the opportunity to get rid of his troublesome half-sister by making her Queen of England. Another part of the POD is that Isabella's only full sibling, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias isn't poisoned and marries their "Niece" to settle the succession dispute in Castile. I also think Isabella being in England during the Wars of The Roses to be interesting, as she'd give Margaret d'Anjou a run for her money....

Edward IV of England (b.1442, d.1490) (1) m. Isabella of Castile, Queen of England in 1466 (b.1451, d.1506) had issue
1) Elizabeth of York, Holy Roman Empress (b.1466, d.1518) m. Maximillian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459, d.1519) in 1483, had issue
2) Stillborn son (b.1468)
3) Edward, Prince of Wales, later Edward V of England (b.1471, d.1535) m. Anne of Brittany, Queen of England (b.1477, d.1514) had issue, including Edmund I of England (b.1495) second marriage to Susanna of Bavaria (b.1502, d.1543) had issue
4) Richard, Duke of York (b.1473, d.1492) m. Margaret of York, Suo Jure Duchess of Gloucester in 1490 (b.1475, d.1530) had issue, including Edmund, Duke of York (b.1490) and Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b.1492) (2)
5) Cecily of York, Queen of Scots (b.1475, d.1537) m. James IV of Scotland (b.1473, d.1533) had issue
6) Mary of York, Queen of Castile (b.1479, d.1539) m. Enrique V of Castile (3) (b.1482, d.1545) had issue
7) Eleanor of York, Queen of Denmark, and Norway (b.1479, d.1550) m. Christian II of Denmark and Norway(b.1481, d.1559) had issue
8) John, Duke of Somerset (b.1484, d.1557) m. Alice de la Pole, Suo Jure Countess of Lincoln (4) (b.1485, d.1549), had issue

(1) I imagine that Isabella would be much more concerned about her husband's gluttony than Elizabeth Woodville, and would try to curb it, thus he lives longer (Though if he still died in 1483 per IOTL, a clash between Isabella and her brother-in-law Richard would be interesting)
(2) Daughter of Richard Duke of Gloucester and Anne Neville, since Richard dies of illness in 1488 she inherits his lands, becoming the greatest heiress of all England and naturally marries her young cousin, until he dies of Tuberculosis.
(3) Eldest surviving son of Juana la Beltraneja I of Castile and her "half-uncle" husband Alfonso XII.
(4) Daughter and heiress of John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln, who dies in a hunting accident in 1488
Margaret can not inherit the Dukedom of Gloucester, but if her aunt Isabella died young or childless (as you are implying here) then Margaret would be suo jure Countess of Warwick and Countess of Salisbury once her mother and maternal grandfather died
 
Louis XI has daughter born in 1458 (named Louise) who marries Edward IV.

Edward IV (1442-1483) King of England, m. Louise of France (1458-1510)

1) Edward V (1474-1503) King of England 1483, m. Margaret of Austria (1480-1530)

1) Edward (1501-1502)​

2) Richard III (1476-1526) King of England 1503, m. Elizabeth Howard (1480-1538)

1) Elizabeth (1502-1556) m. Michael I (1498-1546) King of Spain*​
1) John (1520-1541) Prince of Asturias, m. Margaret of France (1523-1575)​
1) John IV (1541-1601) King of Spain 1546​
2) Alfonso (1522-1525)​
3) Michael I (1524-1583) King of England 1543, m. Margaret of Austria** (1529-1578), has issue​
4) Isabella (1526-1588) m. Maximilian II (1526-1569) Holy Roman Emperor**​
5) Ferdinand (1529-1561) Duke of Cadiz​
6) Manuel (1531)​
2) Richard (1504-1509)​
3) Edward (1506)​
4) Thomas I (1508-1543) King of England 1526, m. Catherine of Austria (1507-1578)​
1) Richard (1529)​
2) Richard (1531-1532)​
3) Elizabeth (1532)​
4) Edward (1535-1536)​
5) Catherine (1538)​
5) Louise (1510)​
6) Edward (1516-1521)​

3) Cecily (1478-1499) m. James IV (1473-1516) King of Scotland

1) James (1499-1509)​

4) Margaret (1479-1484)

5) Anne (1481)

* Surviving Miguel da Paz

** Children of HRE Charles V and Anna of Bohemia and Hungary
 
Margaret can not inherit the Dukedom of Gloucester, but if her aunt Isabella died young or childless (as you are implying here) then Margaret would be suo jure Countess of Warwick and Countess of Salisbury once her mother and maternal grandfather died
Oh I see, would that be because Appanages in England operate under salic law, or is it because of her father's attainder?
 
Oh I see, would that be because Appanages in England operate under salic law, or is it because of her father's attainder?
I think this is the reason tho @The Professor would know more.
Margaret can not inherit the Dukedom of Gloucester, but if her aunt Isabella died young or childless (as you are implying here) then Margaret would be suo jure Countess of Warwick and Countess of Salisbury once her mother and maternal grandfather died
Yes and no. She can't inherit the Dukedom immediately, but she can be Duchess of Gloucester suo jure. Margaret of Norfolk was Duchess in her own right and knowing Edward, it won't be out of the left field that he makes Margaret Duchess in her own right.

The choice of name is interesting tho, is there a reason for Margaret or did you pick it randomly?
 
I think this is the reason tho @The Professor would know more.

Yes and no. She can't inherit the Dukedom immediately, but she can be Duchess of Gloucester suo jure. Margaret of Norfolk was Duchess in her own right and knowing Edward, it won't be out of the left field that he makes Margaret Duchess in her own right.

The choice of name is interesting tho, is there a reason for Margaret or did you pick it randomly?
Kind of randomly, though it is the name of one of Richard's sister's after all.
 
Oh I see, would that be because Appanages in England operate under salic law, or is it because of her father's attainder?
English Dukedoms were almost all male limited as they were all created under patent - Margaret Duchess of Norfolk was granted the Dukedom for life only (it was recreated in tail male for her son as the 1st Duke of the second creation). The titles and estates granted weren't appanages in the French manner estates were usually separate from the title older earldom's tended to be able to be inherited by women (their husband holding the title during their lifetime) but only if they were the sole heir (if there are more than one daughter then the titles go into abeyance). Your Margaret will inherit her father's estates but not his titles, she will be the heir of her mother's titles eventually. Warwick on the death of her grandmother Anne Beauchamp Countess of Warwick and Salisbury (presumably on the death of her father).
Lincoln was created by Edward IV in 1467 for his nephew - it might well have been limited to his heirs male if not then it would only go to a daughter if she was his only child.
The following provisos were usual - heirs male of the body (of the original holder), heirs male (this could mean the title could pass to a brother, nephew or uncle if the original holder died without issue).
 
I think this is the reason tho @The Professor would know more.

Yes and no. She can't inherit the Dukedom immediately, but she can be Duchess of Gloucester suo jure. Margaret of Norfolk was Duchess in her own right and knowing Edward, it won't be out of the left field that he makes Margaret Duchess in her own right.

The choice of name is interesting tho, is there a reason for Margaret or did you pick it randomly?
As @mcdnab points out English Dukedoms were usually male only inheritance (this was a deliberate copy of the French), note that OTL Margaret had to be created Duchess as she couldn't inherit the title.
The Earldom titles however are inheritable by women (if they have no sisters, if they do then it needs granting by the King) and Margaret inherited the title of Countess of Norfolk.
 
I assume that if his father Juan II and half brother Carlos still have a falling out Fernando would still inherit. I'm unsure who he would marry though, perhaps a French princess to settle the issue of Rousillion and Cerdanya..

There is no direct French princess (daughter/sister of a king) whom Ferdnando can marry, maybe Bona of Savoy would do for him?
 
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