List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Brita]

Louis XVI, King of France and Navarre (b.1754:d.1793) m. Maria Antonia of Austria (b.1755:d.1793)

1) Marie Thérese, Fille de France (b.1778:d.1855) m. João VI, King of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves (b.1767:d.1831)​

1) Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil (b.1799:d.1844)​

2) Infanta Maria Antonia (b.1801:d.1816)​

3) Infanta Maria Isabel (b.1802:d.1881)​

4) Manuel II, King of Portugal and the Algarves (b.1804:d.1879)​

5) Infanta Maria of the Rosary (b.1805:d.1860) a carmelite nun​

6) Infanta Maria Ana of Jesus (b.1806:d.1810)​

7) Infanta Maria Francisca of Salvador (b.1808:d.1890)​

2) Louis XVII & I, King of France and Louisiane (b.1781:d.1834) m. Maria Amalia of Austria (b.1780:d.1866)​

1) Louis II of Louisiane (b.1803:d.1862)​

2) Maria Clotilde of Louisiane (b.1805:d.1810) died of smallpox​

3) Maria Magdalene of Louisiane (b.1806:d.1848)​

4) Henri Philippe, Grand Duke of Saint Domingue (b.1811:d.1870)​

3) Louis XVIII, King of France (b.1785:d.1826) m. Maria Amelia of Naples and Sicily (b.1782:d.1821) (a) m. Maria Francisca of Salvador (b.1808:d.1885)​

1a) Henry V, King of the French (b.1809:d.1871)​

2a) Marie Louise of France (b.1810:d.1818)​

3a) Marie Felicite of France (b.1812:d.1889)​

4a) Sophie Helene of France (b.1814:d.1840)​

5a) Charles Louis, Duke of Angouleme (b.1815:d.1831)​

6a) Louis Alphonse, Count of Provence (b.1817:d.1820)​

7a) Marie Josephine of France (b.1819:d.1900)​

8a) Marie Éthiene of France (1821)​

1b) Marie Louise of France (b.1823:d.1894)​

2b) Louis Albert of France, Duke of Britanny (b.1825:d.1900)​

3b) Marie Antoinette of France (b.1827:d.1880)​

4) Sophie Beatrix, Fille de France (b.1786:d.1878)​

​

Just a family line involving an initial POD of France not losing Louisiana to Spain in the end of the Seven Years' War (with most of the population of Quebec later moving to there) and later the children of Louis XVII (including a Dauphin that lived to adulthood) escaping prison after accidentally hearing about the execution of their parents and fleeing firstly to Britain and later to Louisiana, who remained under royalist control). After a Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars that follow similarly to OTL, the older of the two Louis declines returning to France and passes the throne to his younger brother, who becomes Louis XVIII of France

Portugal was never considered for Marie Thérèse (although a match between José, Prince of Brasil (Joao VI's eldest brother) and Madame Elisabeth was considered in the early years of Louis XVI's reign). Fiancées that were considered were the short-lived son of Carlos IV born in 1780, her cousin in Naples, OTL Louis Philippe (although Antoinette had a personal dislike for Philippe Egalité) and Victor Emanuel I of Savoy. A "joke" candidate was Gustaf IV of Sweden, although I seriously doubt such a match.

Not only that, but such a massive POD in 1763 (France not losing Louisiana) can alter the entire cause of the French Revolution. Why? Because do you really think that Louis XVI (who was reluctant to help the colonies from the start) is going to help the Americans here? He was only talked into it by his ministers who convinced him that it would be a show of strength against Britain. Secondly, even if he does help the colonies, if he still owns Louisiane he's in a position to force them to trade with him instead of England (he expected this OTL and was pissed off when the former colonies continued to trade with Britain instead). This trade would perhaps "alleviate" the debt incurred.

Alternatively, if he doesn't help the colonies (but doesn't help the Brits either), they need to find foreign assistance elsewhere. Spain might, but not controlling Louisiane she'd have no interest; the Dutch can provide financial backing as they did OTL, but ultimately, my opinion is that Britain keeps the colonies. The colonies' revolution fails or, without French assistance, the national debt isn't worsened (it was actually getting under control before Louis decided to get in on the action in America IIRC), France might not revolt for another few years (if at all).

And that's leaving out the idea that a king of France will willingly give up France to become king of the boonies (no offense to the Missouri-Mississippi basin of today), Brasil at least had some infrastructure when the Portuguese court arrived there OTL. Same goes for Brasil, a nerfed/different French Revolution with no Napoléon means that likely the Portuguese court never flees there, which means Brasil (hell, most of South America) doesn't get its independence the OTL way.

Another problem here is that the French king couldn't choose his successor, as explained here. So unless Louis XVII is killed/deposed, he'll remain King of France and be succeeded by his eldest son. The only thing he can do IMO is give up Louisiane to his younger brother, who will become Louis I of Louisiane.

 

[kasumigenx]

And when does Edward get named heir to the throne of France? I'm guessing that the situation involves Jean II dying before he has children?

That is basically because Isabella's last surviving brother is able to maneuver support for Edward III prior to his death.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That is basically because Isabella's last surviving brother is able to maneuver support for Edward III prior to his death.

And how did Charles IV do that? IIRC he was under the influence of the comte de Valois, wasn't he?

 

[VVD0D95]

And how did Charles IV do that? IIRC he was under the influence of the comte de Valois, wasn't he?

He was massively so

 

[kasumigenx]

And how did Charles IV do that? IIRC he was under the influence of the comte de Valois, wasn't he?

He was massively so

ITTL he loses John II due to a childhood disease.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

ITTL he loses John II due to a childhood disease.

Sorry, I don't see it. Jean II wasn't his dad's only son, and even if Jean was Philippe VI's only son, Valois had another son (the comte d'Alençon).

 

[kasumigenx]

Sorry, I don't see it. Jean II wasn't his dad's only son, and even if Jean was Philippe VI's only son, Valois had another son (the comte d'Alençon).

In this timeline, Charles IV was manipulated/controlled by Isabella of France, she was able to do that in the Affair of Tour de Nesle.

 

[Violet Rose Lily]

King Miguel "the Wise" "the Peacekeeper" of Iberia (August 23 1498--December 15 1579) m. Eleanor of Austria (November 15 1498- February 15 1558).

1. Infante Manuel (February 18 1520- April 1521).
2. Infanta Maria (June 18 1521-) m. Dauphin Francios (February 28 1518- August 10 1536).
   1. King Francios II "the Posthumous"(March 5 1537).
3. Infante Carlos "the Unlucky" (May 26 1525--1557) m. Maria of Austria (1528-1603).
   1. Infanta Ana (1549--1589).
   2. Infante Manuel (1551-1552)
   3. Infante João (b and d. 1552)
   4. Infante Luis (1553-1565).
   5. Infanta Isabel (1554-1572)
   6. Infante Maria (1555-1555).
   7. Infante Matthias (1556-1569).
4. Infanta Leonor (October 31 1528-1568) m. Holy Roman Emperor Filipe (May 21 1527-September 13 1598).
   1. Archduke Carlos (1545--1568).
   2. Stillborn (1549)
   3. Miscarriage (1553).
   4. Archduchess Isabel Clara Eugenia (1556).
   5. Archduchess Catalina Micaela (1557).
   6. Archduke Ferdinando (1560-1569).
5. Infante Miguel "the Good Prince" (April 29 1530-1575). m. Isabella Gonzaga (1534-1588).
   1. King Sebastião "the Unlikely" (January 1554-1608).
   2. Infante Carlos (1556-1612).
   3. Infanta Leonor (1559).
   4. Infante Miguel (1560).
   5. Infante João (1563).
   6. Infanta Isabel (1565).
6. Infante João, Prince Consort of England. (December 4 1535-1606).
   1. King John II Tudor of England (b. 1560).
   2. Princes Elizabeth (b. 1563).

​

 

[Peppe]

Portugal was never considered for Marie Thérèse (although a match between José, Prince of Brasil (Joao VI's eldest brother) and Madame Elisabeth was considered in the early years of Louis XVI's reign). Fiancées that were considered were the short-lived son of Carlos IV born in 1780, her cousin in Naples, OTL Louis Philippe (although Antoinette had a personal dislike for Philippe Egalité) and Victor Emanuel I of Savoy. A "joke" candidate was Gustaf IV of Sweden, although I seriously doubt such a match.

Not only that, but such a massive POD in 1763 (France not losing Louisiana) can alter the entire cause of the French Revolution. Why? Because do you really think that Louis XVI (who was reluctant to help the colonies from the start) is going to help the Americans here? He was only talked into it by his ministers who convinced him that it would be a show of strength against Britain. Secondly, even if he does help the colonies, if he still owns Louisiane he's in a position to force them to trade with him instead of England (he expected this OTL and was pissed off when the former colonies continued to trade with Britain instead). This trade would perhaps "alleviate" the debt incurred.

Alternatively, if he doesn't help the colonies (but doesn't help the Brits either), they need to find foreign assistance elsewhere. Spain might, but not controlling Louisiane she'd have no interest; the Dutch can provide financial backing as they did OTL, but ultimately, my opinion is that Britain keeps the colonies. The colonies' revolution fails or, without French assistance, the national debt isn't worsened (it was actually getting under control before Louis decided to get in on the action in America IIRC), France might not revolt for another few years (if at all).

And that's leaving out the idea that a king of France will willingly give up France to become king of the boonies (no offense to the Missouri-Mississippi basin of today), Brasil at least had some infrastructure when the Portuguese court arrived there OTL. Same goes for Brasil, a nerfed/different French Revolution with no Napoléon means that likely the Portuguese court never flees there, which means Brasil (hell, most of South America) doesn't get its independence the OTL way.

Another problem here is that the French king couldn't choose his successor, as explained here. So unless Louis XVII is killed/deposed, he'll remain King of France and be succeeded by his eldest son. The only thing he can do IMO is give up Louisiane to his younger brother, who will become Louis I of Louisiane.

I know that many things in that lineage doesn't make sense and that for the Revolution to still happen as OTL with France retaining Louisiana would need a butterfly net the size of Texas, I was just wanting to have fun with lineages OK

(The thing about the French monarch not being capable of abdicating, though, I admit I didn't have any idea about that, so in that area I'll change it)

 

[Jan Olbracht]

House of Bruce survives-David II has issue.

David II (1324-1371) King of Scotland 1329, m. a) Joan of England (1321-1362) b) Margaret Drummond (1340-1375)

1b) Robert II (1365-1405) King of Scotland 1371, m. Alianore Holland (1370-1405)

2b) David (1367-1386)

3b) Elizabeth (1368-1413) m. Richard II (1368-1408) King of England

1) Edward (1386-1392)​

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2) Richard (1389-1390)​

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3) William III (1390-1442) King of England 1408​

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4) Joan (1392-1447)​

​

5) Edward (1396-1461) Duke of Clarence​

4b) Alexander IV (1370-1428) King of Scotland 1405, m. Marie of France (1393-1438)

1) David III (1410-1462) King of Scotland 1428​

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2) Alexander (1412-1416)​

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3) Charles (1415)​

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4) Margaret (1417-1469)​

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​

 

[Kynan]

Scenario: Charles, Count of Clermont survives.

Anne, Princess of France (b.1461: d.1522) m. Peter II, Duke of Bourbon (b.1438: d.1503) (a)

1a) Charles III, Duke of Bourbon (b.1476: d.1542) m. Louise of Savoy (b.1476: d.1531) (a), Anne of Cleves (b.1515: d.1558) (b)​

​

1a) Marie de Bourbon (b.1500: d.1570) m. Henri II, King of Navarre (b.1503: d.1555) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1522)​

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2a) Francois, Prince of Navarre (b.1523: d.1526)​

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3a) Henri III, King of Navarre (b.1525)​

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4a) Miscarriage (c.1526)​

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5a) Suzanne d'Albret, Princess of Navarre (b.1529)​

​

6a) Peter, Count of Périgord (b.1531)​

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7a) Stillborn Son (c.1533)​

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2a) Stillborn Son (c.1501)​

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3a) Peter III, Duke of Bourbon (b.1503: d.1545) m. Renee, Princess of France (b.1510: d.1574) (a)​

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1a) Catherine de Bourbon (b.1532)​

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2a) Peter IV, Duke of Bourbon (b.1535)​

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3a) Guy de Bourbon (b.1538: d.1550)​

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4a) Marguerite de Bourbon (b.1540)​

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5a) Francois, Count of Gien (b.1541)​

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4a) Charles de Bourbon, Count of La Marche (b.1505: d.1536)​

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5a) Jeanne de Bourbon (b.1506: d.1551) - nun​

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6a) Stillborn Son (c.1508)​

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7b) Francoise de Bourbon (b.1536: d.1545)​

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8b) Elisabeth de Bourbon (b.1538: d.1600) m. Francis II, Duke of Nevers (b.1540: d.1562) (a)​

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1a) Elisabeth Charlotte of Cleves (b.1559: d.1560)​

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2a) Peter I, Duke of Nevers (b.1561)​

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9b) Philippe de Bourbon, Count of Forez (b.1539: d.1578) m. Charlotte de Bourbon (b.1546/1547: d.1582) (a)​

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1a) Marie de Bourbon (b.1570)​

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2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1573)​

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3a) Marguerite de Bourbon (b.1575)​

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4a) Isabelle de Bourbon (b.1578)​

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2a) Suzanne de Bourbon (b.1491: d.1519) m. Charles IV, Duke of Alençon (b.1489: d.1525) (a)​

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1a) Stillborn Son (c.1510)​

​

2a) Anne d'Alencon (b.1516: d.1545) m. Alessandro de' Medici, Duke of Florence (b.1510: d.1537) (a), James V, King of Scotland (b.1512: d.1542) (b)​

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1b) James VI, King of Scotland (b.1539: d.1549)​

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2a) Margaret Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1540)​

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3a) Miscarriage (c.1540)​

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4a) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1541: d.1547)​

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5a) Peter I, King of Scotland (b.1542)​

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3a) Charles V, Duke of Alencon (b.1518: d.1569) m. Marie of Guise (b.1515: d.1559) (a)​

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1a) Suzanne d'Alencon (b.1538)​

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2a) Charles d'Alencon (b.1540: d.1554)​

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3a) Marguerite d'Alencon (b.1543)​

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4a) Stillborn Son (c.1544)​

 

[VVD0D95]

House of Bruce survives-David II has issue.

David II (1324-1371) King of Scotland 1329, m. a) Joan of England (1321-1362) b) Margaret Drummond (1340-1375)

1b) Robert II (1365-1405) King of Scotland 1371, m. Alianore Holland (1370-1405)

2b) David (1367-1386)

3b) Elizabeth (1368-1413) m. Richard II (1368-1408) King of England

1) Edward (1386-1392)​

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2) Richard (1389-1390)​

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3) William III (1390-1442) King of England 1408​

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4) Joan (1392-1447)​

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5) Edward (1396-1461) Duke of Clarence​

4b) Alexander IV (1370-1428) King of Scotland 1405, m. Marie of France (1393-1438)

1) David III (1410-1462) King of Scotland 1428​

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2) Alexander (1412-1416)​

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3) Charles (1415)​

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4) Margaret (1417-1469)​

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I like this

 

[Violet Rose Lily]

POD: Maria of Aragon's twin brother survives.

King Alfonso XII of Spain, Naples, Sicily and Navarra (June 29 1482-1525) m. Germaine of Foix (1488-1538).

1. King Juan III of Spain (May 3 1507-1559) m. Catherine of Austria (1507-1578).​

2. Infanta Isabel (December 15 1508-1570) m. King Francios of France in 1530.​

3. Infanta Maria (August 26 1511-1562).​

4. Infante Ferdinando (September 2 1515-1534). betrothed to Princess Mary of Wales until 1533.​

5. Infanta Catalina (b. August 20 1518) m. Sigismund II Augustus of Poland.​

6. Infante James, later King James V of Spain (b. July 25 1520-1590).​

​

Any ideas on who Infanta Maria and the future King James of Spain could marry?​

 

[HortenseMancini]

POD: Maria of Aragon's twin brother survives.

King Alfonso XII of Spain, Naples, Sicily and Navarra (June 29 1482-1525) m. Germaine of Foix (1488-1538).

1. King Juan III of Spain (May 3 1507-1559) m. Catherine of Austria (1507-1578).​

2. Infanta Isabel (December 15 1508-1570) m. King Francios of France in 1530.​

3. Infanta Maria (August 26 1511-1562).​

4. Infante Ferdinando (September 2 1515-1534). betrothed to Princess Mary of Wales until 1533.​

5. Infanta Catalina (b. August 20 1518) m. Sigismund II Augustus of Poland.​

6. Infante James, later King James V of Spain (b. July 25 1520-1590).​

​

Any ideas on who Infanta Maria and the future King James of Spain could marry?​

James seems ripe for a match with an ATL daughter of one of his Habsburg cousins. Maria could be a second wife for François I, assuming that he still comes to the throne ITTL.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

POD: Maria of Aragon's twin brother survives.

King Alfonso XII of Spain, Naples, Sicily and Navarra (June 29 1482-1525) m. Germaine of Foix (1488-1538).

1. King Juan III of Spain (May 3 1507-1559) m. Catherine of Austria (1507-1578).​

2. Infanta Isabel (December 15 1508-1570) m. King Francios of France in 1530.​

3. Infanta Maria (August 26 1511-1562).​

4. Infante Ferdinando (September 2 1515-1534). betrothed to Princess Mary of Wales until 1533.​

5. Infanta Catalina (b. August 20 1518) m. Sigismund II Augustus of Poland.​

6. Infante James, later King James V of Spain (b. July 25 1520-1590).​

​

Any ideas on who Infanta Maria and the future King James of Spain could marry?​

There would be massive butterflies outside Spain if Catholic Monarcha have surviving son:
-marriage of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII would not be delayed-IOTL after death of Juan de Asturias and Miguel da Paz it was Juana la Loca and Philip Habsburg, who were heirs to the throne of Castile, thus for Henry VII mariage between future Henry VIII and Philip's daughter Eleanor looked like more attractive option than marriage of H8 with Catherine. ITTL Henry VIII would marry Catherine just after reaching proper age (14 years) and Catalina would suffer much less stress (thus is more likely to have healthy children).
-as Charles Habsburg would not inherit Spanish throne, he'd not need to marry his oldest sister to Manuel of Portugal. Thus he'd marry Sigismund the Old of Poland instead, as her grandfather HRE Maximilian wanted.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Juan, Prince of Asturias lives, but Margaret of Austria dies.

John III (1478-1518) King of Spain, m. a) Margaret of Austria (1480-1498) b) Joanna of Naples (1479-1518)

1a) Ferdinand VI (1498-1554) King of Spain 1518, m. a) Isabella of Portugal (1503-1539) b) Margaret of France (1523-1574)

2b) Alfonso III (1501-1557) King of Naples 1518, m. a) Isabella of Austria (1501-1525) b) Isabella of Milan* (1519-1561)

3b) Isabella (1503-1565) m. John III (1502-1557) King of Portugal

4b) John (1505)

5b) Joanna (1506-1551) m. Charles III (1486-1553) Duke of Savoy

6b) John (1508-1514)

7b) Maria (1512-1583) m. Francis I (1494-1547) King of France

* Daughter of Bona Sforza and Massimiliano Sforza

 

[Wendell]

Why not have Germaine of Foix marry the surviving Prince of Asturias?

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I second Wendell's post. Germaine would be good for Juan as it gives him a claim to Navarre.

 

[Wendell]

I second Wendell's post. Germaine would be good for Juan as it gives him a claim to Navarre.

Where he would also arguably be John III.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Where he would also arguably be John III.

Juan III of Castile, Chuan III of Aragon and Joan III of Navarre. Quite a grand title. Now all he needs are Portugal and he'll be Joao III there too.