List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[kasumigenx]

Edward I m. Eleanor of Castile(a) Margaret of France

==Other Issue Insignificant==

1a. Eleanor b. 1269 m. Alfonso III of Aragon

2a. Joan b. 1272 m. Gilbert de Clare

3a. Margaret b 1275 m. John II of Brabant

4a. Mary of Woodstock b. 1278 – nun -

5a. Elizabeth b. 1282 m. John of Holland

6a. Edward II of England b. 1284 m. Margaret I of Scotland

7b. Thomas, duke of Aquitaine b. 1300 m. Isabella of France

8b. Edmund, 1st Earl of Norfolk b. 1302

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Family of Alexander Jagiellon:

Alexander I (1461-1517) Grand Duke of Lithuania 1492, King of Poland 1501 m. a) 1495 Helena of Moscow (1476-1500) b) 1502 Anna of Brandenburg (1487-1514)

1a) Casimir (1496-1498)

2a) Alexander II (1498-1547) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1517, m. 1518 Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558)

1) Alexander III (1523-1598) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1547, m. Anna of Austria (1528-1590)​

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1) Alexander (1549-1551)​

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2) Vladislaus (1550-1590)​

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3) Hedwig (1552-1583)​

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4) Elizabeth (1554-1607)​

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5) Sophia (1557)​

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6) Helena (1560-1612)​

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7) Alexander IV (1562-1624) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1598​

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8) Casimir (1564-1602)​

3a) Hedwig (1499-1556) m. 1515 John (1468-1532) Elector of Saxony, has issue

4a) Helena (1500-1556) m. 1516 Stanisław (1500-1524) Duke of Mazovia, has issue

5b) Elizabeth (1505-1579) m. 1522 Albert VII (1486-1547) Duke of Mecklenburg-Güstrow, has issue

6b) Casimir (1508-1514)

7b) Vladislaus (1511-1513)

 

[isabella]

Family of Alexander Jagiellon:

Alexander I (1461-1517) Grand Duke of Lithuania 1492, King of Poland 1501 m. a) 1495 Helena of Moscow (1476-1500) b) 1502 Anna of Brandenburg (1487-1514)

1a) Casimir (1496-1498)

2a) Alexander II (1498-1547) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1517, m. 1520 Mary of Austria* (1505-1558)

1) Alexander III (1523-1598) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1547, m. Anna of Austria (1528-1590)​

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1) Alexander (1549-1551)​

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2) Vladislaus (1550-1590)​

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3) Hedwig (1552-1583)​

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4) Elizabeth (1554-1607)​

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5) Sophia (1557)​

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6) Helena (1560-1612)​

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7) Alexander IV (1562-1624) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1598​

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8) Casimir (1564-1602)​

3a) Hedwig (1499-1556) m. 1515 John (1468-1532) Elector of Saxony, has issue

4a) Helena (1500-1556) m. 1516 Stanisław (1500-1524) Duke of Mazovia, has issue

5b) Elizabeth (1505-1579) m. 1522 Albert VII (1486-1547) Duke of Mecklenburg-Güstrow, has issue

6b) Casimir (1508-1514)

7b) Vladislaus (1511-1513)

* ITTL Eleanor of Austria (oldest sister of HRE Charles V) is married not to Manuel of Portugal butvto his son to John III. OTOH John's OTL wife Catherine is Queen of Bohemia and Hungary instead of Mary).

Pretty unlikely who the switch would go on so easily... Maybe marrying Eleanor in Poland around 1516 would work better (or send Isabella in Poland and marry Christian II of Denmark to someone else).
Still the Eleanor-João match is pretty unlikely to go ahead with Charles refusal to marry Isabella of Portugal

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Pretty unlikely who the switch would go on so easily... Maybe marrying Eleanor in Poland around 1516 would work better (or send Isabella in Poland and marry Christian II of Denmark to someone else).
Still the Eleanor-João match is pretty unlikely to go ahead with Charles refusal to marry Isabella of Portugal

Is very easy if Manuel dies a bit earlier.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Still the Eleanor-João match is pretty unlikely to go ahead with Charles refusal to marry Isabella of Portugal

While this is true, Manuel NOT being a widower at the time of the João-Eleonore match could play a role. Should Maria of Aragon live a bit longer, it's hardly as though Eleonore could marry Manuel.

As to the match in Poland, OTL Siggie was rebuffed by Karl V for Eleonore's hand aafter Barbara Zapolya died. Here, with heirs and spares, Alexander might look around some for his son (a French or proxy French match might even be considered). By which time Isabella's married. Choices are between Mary of Austria and Katharina of Austria.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

While this is true, Manuel NOT being a widower at the time of the João-Eleonore match could play a role. Should Maria of Aragon live a bit longer, it's hardly as though Eleonore could marry Manuel.

As to the match in Poland, OTL Siggie was rebuffed by Karl V for Eleonore's hand aafter Barbara Zapolya died. Here, with heirs and spares, Alexander might look around some for his son (a French or proxy French match might even be considered). By which time Isabella's married. Choices are between Mary of Austria and Katharina of Austria.

This, or Manuel simply dies earlier. Thus only available royal spouses left for youngest sisters of Charles V are Jagiellon monarchs.

 

[isabella]

While this is true, Manuel NOT being a widower at the time of the João-Eleonore match could play a role. Should Maria of Aragon live a bit longer, it's hardly as though Eleonore could marry Manuel.

As to the match in Poland, OTL Siggie was rebuffed by Karl V for Eleonore's hand aafter Barbara Zapolya died. Here, with heirs and spares, Alexander might look around some for his son (a French or proxy French match might even be considered). By which time Isabella's married. Choices are between Mary of Austria and Katharina of Austria.

This, or Manuel simply dies earlier. Thus only available royal spouses left for youngest sisters of Charles V are Jagiellon monarchs.

Not really, is likely who the refusal of Charles to marry Isabella put the end over the chances of a wedding between Eleanor and Joao.
The point is who without Maria’s death and with Karl refusing to marry Isabella of Portugal the chances of a Polish match for Eleanor are pretty high (and she was still unmarried mostly because she had a broken betrothal and three failed engagements before being offered to Sigismund and João, and then married to Manuel).

Keep in consideration this: a wedding in Portugal for Eleanor will not be taken in consideration before 1516 and she was engaged to Henry VIII of England (then Prince of Wales) until 1509. After that she was refuted to Christian II of Denmark and offered to Louis XII of France and Antoine of Lorraine and to Sigismund of Poland.
Considering how Maximilian was interested in matches with the Jagiellons I think who a wedding between Eleanor and Alexander before the death of his father (and Charles‘ inheritance of Spain) is really likely.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Not really, is likely who the refusal of Charles to marry Isabella put the end over the chances of a wedding between Eleanor and Joao.
The point is who without Maria’s death and with Karl refusing to marry Isabella of Portugal the chances of a Polish match for Eleanor are pretty high (and she was still unmarried mostly because she had a broken betrothal and three failed engagements before being offered to Sigismund and João, and then married to Manuel).

Keep in consideration this: a wedding in Portugal for Eleanor will not be taken in consideration before 1516 and she was engaged to Henry VIII of England (then Prince of Wales) until 1509. After that she was refuted to Christian II of Denmark and offered to Louis XII of France and Antoine of Lorraine and to Sigismund of Poland.
Considering how Maximilian was interested in matches with the Jagiellons I think who a wedding between Eleanor and Alexander before the death of his father (and Charles‘ inheritance of Spain) is really likely.

So Mary is replaced by Eleanor in scenario above in such case and wedding between her and Alexander is decided in ATL Vienna (when Ferdinand of Aragon is still alive and Karl, not being King of Spain yet, is not in good position to oppose decision of Max)

 

[kasumigenx]

Henry II m. Eleanor of Aquitaine(b)

1b. Henry III of England b. 1155 m. Ida of Boulogne(a)

1b1a. William III of England b. 1176

2b. Matilda of England b. 1156 m. Philip I of Flanders(b)

2b1b. Isabella of Flanders b. 1173 m. Philippe II Auguste

2b2b. Henry I of Flanders b. 1176

3b. Richard I of Aquitaine b. 1157 m. Mahaut of Bourbon

4b. Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany b. 1158 m. Constance of Brittany(a)

4b?a. Arthur I of Brittany b. 1187

5b. Eleanor of England b. 1162 m. Alfonso VIII of Castile(a)

5b?a. Ferdinand II of Castile b. 1189

6b. Joan of England b. 1165 m. Henry VI, Holy Roman Empire

6b?a. Frederick of Swabia b. 1186

7b. John of England, Lord of Ireland b. 1166 m. Alice of Savoy(a)

7b?a. Henry I of Ireland b. 1187

 

[VVD0D95]

Henry II m. Eleanor of Aquitaine(b)

1b. Henry III of England b. 1155 m. Ida of Boulogne(a)

1b1a. William III of England b. 1176

2b. Matilda of England b. 1156 m. Philip I of Flanders(b)

2b1b. Isabella of Flanders b. 1173 m. Philippe II Auguste

2b2b. Henry I of Flanders b. 1176

3b. Richard I of England b. 1157 m. Mahaut of Flanders

4b. Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany b. 1158 m. Constance of Brittany(a)

4b?a. Arthur I of Brittany b. 1187

5b. Eleanor of England b. 1162 m. Alfonso VIII of Castile(a)

5b?a. Ferdinand II of Castile b. 1189

6b. Joan of England b. 1165 m. Henry VI, Holy Roman Empire

6b?a. Frederick of Swabia b. 1186

7b. John of England, Lord of Ireland b. 1166 m. Alice of Savoy(a)

7b?a. Henry I of Ireland b. 1187

How does Richard beckme king?

 

[kasumigenx]

How does Richard beckme king?

ninja'd

 

[isabella]

Henry II m. Eleanor of Aquitaine(b)

1b. Henry III of England b. 1155 m. Ida of Boulogne(a)

1b1a. William III of England b. 1176

2b. Matilda of England b. 1156 m. Philip I of Flanders(b)

2b1b. Isabella of Flanders b. 1173 m. Philippe II Auguste

2b2b. Henry I of Flanders b. 1176

3b. Richard I of Aquitaine b. 1157 m. Mahaut of Boulogne

4b. Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany b. 1158 m. Constance of Brittany(a)

4b?a. Arthur I of Brittany b. 1187

5b. Eleanor of England b. 1162 m. Alfonso VIII of Castile(a)

5b?a. Ferdinand II of Castile b. 1189

6b. Joan of England b. 1165 m. Henry VI, Holy Roman Empire

6b?a. Frederick of Swabia b. 1186

7b. John of England, Lord of Ireland b. 1166 m. Alice of Savoy(a)

7b?a. Henry I of Ireland b. 1187

Why Ida and Mahaut of Boulogne as brides for Henry and Richard? At least one of them MUST marry a French princess for resolving the Vexin question

 

[kasumigenx]

Why Ida and Mahaut of Boulogne as brides for Henry and Richard? At least one of them MUST marry a French princess for resolving the Vexin question

Actually it is Mahaut of Bourbon..

 

[isabella]

Actually it is Mahaut of Bourbon..

The result do not change... Both Ida and Mahaut can be good heiresses but their lands do no interest Henry II as much as the disputed Vexin who will be part of the dowry of Marguerite or Alys of France so either Henry or Richard will marry a French princess...

 

[kasumigenx]

The result do not change... Both Ida and Mahaut can be good heiresses but their lands do no interest Henry II as much as the disputed Vexin who will be part of the dowry of Marguerite or Alys of France so either Henry or Richard will marry a French princess...

Something like this would be better.

Henry II m. Eleanor of Aquitaine(b)



1b. Henry III of England b. 1155 m. Ida of Boulogne(a)



1b1a. William III of England b. 1176



2b. Matilda of England b. 1156 m. Philip I of Flanders(b)



2b1b. Matilda of Flanders b. 1172 m. Philippe II Auguste



2b2b. Henry I of Flanders b. 1176



3b. Richard I of Aquitaine b. 1157 m. Margaret of France(a)

3b1a. William XI of Aquitaine b. 1177

4b. Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany b. 1158 m. Constance of Brittany(a)



4b?a. Arthur I of Brittany b. 1187



5b. Eleanor of England b. 1162 m. Alfonso VIII of Castile(a)



5b?a. Ferdinand II of Castile b. 1189



6b. Joan of England b. 1165 m. Henry VI, Holy Roman Empire



6b?a. Frederick of Swabia b. 1186



7b. John of England, Lord of Ireland b. 1166 m. Alice of Savoy(a)



7b?a. Henry I of Ireland b. 1187

 

[HortenseMancini]

(Because I'm always a sucker for Alexander I and Luise of Baden living a happier life...)

Children of Tsar Alexander I of Russia (b. 1778) and Tsarina Elizabeth Alexeievna of Russia (born Luise Auguste of Baden; b. 1779):
1) Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia (b. 1797) m. Prince Alexander Chavchavadze (b. 1786) in 1814, had issue

1) Princess Elizabeth Chavchavadze (b. 1815) m. Prince Charles of Hesse and by Rhine (b. 1809) in 1836, had issue​

2) Princess Catherine Chavchavadze (b. 1816) m. David Dadiani, Prince of Mingrelia (b. 1813) in 1838, had issue​

3) Prince Alexander Chavchavadze (b. 1818, d. 1842)​

4) Prince David Chavchavadze (b. 1822)​

5) Princess Anna Chavchavadze (b. 1825) m. Prince Constantine Alekseevich Bagration (b. 1818) in 1847, had no issue​

2) Grand Duchess Elizabeth Alexandrovna of Russia (b. 1805) m. Prince Franz of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Franz Maximilian Ludwig; b. 1792) [1] in 1823, had issue

1) Princess Auguste of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Auguste Luise; b. 1824) m. Count Alfred of Stolberg-Stolberg (b. 1822) in 1848, had issue​

2) Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Elisabeth Alexandrine Marie; b. 1826, d. 1845) m. Adolphe, Duke of Nassau (b. 1817) in 1844, had issue​

3) Princess Catherine of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Catharina Sophie Helene; b. 1827) m. Prince Edward of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (b. 1823) in 1851, had no issue​

4) Prince Konstantin of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Konstantin Ludwig Anton Paul; b. 1829)​

5) Prince Franz Ludwig of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Franz Ludwig Alexander; b. 1832, d. 1834)​

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--​

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[1] Son of Auguste of Reuss and Francis of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and thus uncle to Queen Victoria, Leopold II of Belgium, and Ferdinand of Portugal, OTL he died in infancy.​

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

(Because I'm always a sucker for Alexander I and Luise of Baden living a happier life...)

Children of Tsar Alexander I of Russia (b. 1778) and Tsarina Elizabeth Alexeievna of Russia (born Luise Auguste of Baden; b. 1779):
1) Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia (b. 1797) m. Prince Alexander Chavchavadze (b. 1786) in 1814, had issue

1) Princess Elizabeth Chavchavadze (b. 1815) m. Prince Charles of Hesse and by Rhine (b. 1809) in 1836, had issue​

2) Princess Catherine Chavchavadze (b. 1816) m. David Dadiani, Prince of Mingrelia (b. 1813) in 1838, had issue​

3) Prince Alexander Chavchavadze (b. 1818, d. 1842)​

4) Prince David Chavchavadze (b. 1822)​

5) Princess Anna Chavchavadze (b. 1825) m. Prince Constantine Alekseevich Bagration (b. 1818) in 1847, had no issue​

2) Grand Duchess Elizabeth Alexandrovna of Russia (b. 1805) m. Prince Franz of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Franz Maximilian Ludwig; b. 1792) [1] in 1823, had issue

1) Princess Auguste of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Auguste Luise; b. 1824) m. Count Alfred of Stolberg-Stolberg (b. 1822) in 1848, had issue​

2) Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Elisabeth Alexandrine Marie; b. 1826, d. 1845) m. Adolphe, Duke of Nassau (b. 1817) in 1844, had issue​

3) Princess Catherine of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Catharina Sophie Helene; b. 1827) m. Prince Edward of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (b. 1823) in 1851, had no issue​

4) Prince Konstantin of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Konstantin Ludwig Anton Paul; b. 1829)​

5) Prince Franz Ludwig of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Franz Ludwig Alexander; b. 1832, d. 1834)​

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--​

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[1] Son of Auguste of Reuss and Francis of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and thus uncle to Queen Victoria, Leopold II of Belgium, and Ferdinand of Portugal, OTL he died in infancy.​

Neither match is very likely IMO. Chavchavadze would be considered too unimportant for a czar's eldest daughter. And Franz Maximilian is brother to Grand Duchess Anna Feodorovna, wife of Konstantin Pavlovich (uncle of Yelizaveta). Pretty unimportant for a czar's daughter.

@Valena @alexmilman

 

[HortenseMancini]

Neither match is very likely IMO. Chavchavadze would be considered too unimportant for a czar's eldest daughter. And Franz Maximilian is brother to Grand Duchess Anna Feodorovna, wife of Konstantin Pavlovich (uncle of Yelizaveta). Pretty unimportant for a czar's daughter.

@Valena @alexmilman

My idea is that Alexander and Elizabeth/Luise, since their daughters aren't in line for the Imperial throne or anything, kind of do like Empress Maria Theresa did with Archduchess Marie Christine and let their girls marry who they want. Plus, they've seen how marriages of convenience can work out...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

My idea is that Alexander and Elizabeth/Luise, since their daughters aren't in line for the Imperial throne or anything, kind of do like Empress Maria Theresa did with Archduchess Marie Christine and let their girls marry who they want. Plus, they've seen how marriages of convenience can work out...

Except Russia is NOT LIKE Austria to quote Anisimov's comparison. And Alexander wasn't much worried about marriages of convenience being a problem when he was offering Anna Pavlovna to the duc de Berri, Fernando VII of Spain, future Emperor Goodinand, and Louis XVIII.

 

[alexmilman]

Neither match is very likely IMO. Chavchavadze would be considered too unimportant for a czar's eldest daughter.

@Valena @alexmilman

Even worse, they did not belong (AFAIK) to any royal family. Much later an excuse for Prince Bagration being permitted to marry (morganatically) a Grand Duchess was that he belonged to a former ruling family. But the time was much more lenient. The morganatic marriages became legalized in 1820 (thus allowing second marriage of Constantine) but there must be imperial permission in each case) but the children were losing all rights of the members of imperial family. So, 1814 is a non-starter.