List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Well, if Charles VIII still dies on schedule, Margaret will be only 17. OTL she was pregnant at that age but her kid was stillborn, if that's the case here too then she can go on to marry Philibert of Savoy and possibly become Regent of the Habsburg Netherlands.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm this is true, and of course one might question why that would change just because Edward and Elizabeth marry one another.
Emperor of Romania
POD: What if Enrico accepted the offer to become Emperor by the crusaders?
Henricus I Dandulus (1204-1205) [1]
Ranierius I Dandulus (1205-1208) [2]
Fantinus I Dandulus (1208-1230) [3]
Gilbert I Dandulus (1230 - 1270) [4]
Ioannes I Dandulus (1270-1291) [5]
Andrea I Dandulus (1291-1298) [6]
Ioannes II Dandulus (1298-1302) [7]
Marcus I Dandulus (1302-1318) [8]
[1] The Venetian Doge Enrico Dandolo was offered the title of Emperor by the Crusaders IOTL; here he accepts but his reign is short-reigned. I think the election of the Doge and his Venetian family would maybe negate the necessity of the Podesta. Crete is ceded to Venice and elsewhere remains nominally under Latin rule.
[2] Raniero was Enrico's eldest son and consigliere ducale, also known by Vice-Doge. He becomes Enrico's successor in Constantinople. His status as an admiral and statesmen would indicate that the Latin Empire would focus on centralizing its power over its feudal vassals and extending its reach to Asia Minor.
[3] Fantino was the younger brother to Raniero and the OTL Latin bishop in Constantinople. Here he holds title as bishop and Emperor, though the latter is to provide a placeholder for his nephew Gilberto. His status as bishop would indicate a greater focus on ecclesiastical affairs. A first attempt at bringing the Orthodox populations into the Catholic fold(?) Diplomacy re: Bulgaria mixed with attempts to convert the state into Catholicism. Mired with additional issues with vassals in Thessalonica, etc.
[4] Gilberto was Raniero's son. Assuming that his uncle and predecessor raises him right, he would be suited or not to the issues hoisted on him. Make or break. The Latin Empire collapses on schedule or is lucky enough to conquer the Empire of Nicaea and Epirus. Bulgaria could be placated by marrying Gilberto's sister Anna to the Tsar; she was married IOTL to the Serbian king Stefan I so precedent is there.
[5] Ioannes, or rather Giovanni, was OTL Doge of Venice. Given the POD and the time that passed since then, TTL's version of Giovanni grows up in Constantinople and sees himself more Roman than Venetian. The tail begins to wag the dog. Ioannes would opportunistically use revolts by Latin feudatories and Greeks in Crete and elsewhere in the Aegean to bring these lands back into Latin/Roman hands. Problems arise again with Bulgaria in Ioannes' twilight years.
[6] The divorce of the Latin Empire from its Venetian parent means that Constantinople lacks Catholic support internally and externally when it comes to dealing with the Bulgarians or the advancement of the Turkic tribes in Anatolia. Andrea's reign is short-lived and ends with a battle with the Bulgarians.
[7] Giovanni or rather Ioannes II inherits all the problems of his elder brother and father and yet offers no solutions besides attempting to rebuild ties with Venice. He successfully stops a Bulgarian invasion and presumed takeover by bringing the Tsar with treasures stolen from Constantinople's Orthodox churches. He is killed in a riot and replaced by his younger brother Marco.
[8] Marcus' short reign is focused on diplomatic overtures between Constantinople and its neighbors. Treaties between Marcus and neighboring kings show some success in the diplomatic front; some territories were returned to imperial administration such as Epirus and Cyprus. The wars against Venice, Bulgaria, Crusaders, Greeks, among others have long since decimated the Catholic aristocracy and the Greek Orthodox population is unwilling to send its sons to war under the Emperor's banner. Marcus intensifies the Latin Empire's reliance on Turkic mercenaries, promising half of the Empire's land to be handed over to Turkic warriors in exchange for military service. It would be his undoing. Marcus Dandulus was overthrown by his son-in-law Michael Osmanes, Grand Domestic of the Empire. Thus ends the reign of the Dandolo dynasty and the rule of the Ottoman emperors.
POD: What if Enrico accepted the offer to become Emperor by the crusaders?
Henricus I Dandulus (1204-1205) [1]
Ranierius I Dandulus (1205-1208) [2]
Fantinus I Dandulus (1208-1230) [3]
Gilbert I Dandulus (1230 - 1270) [4]
Ioannes I Dandulus (1270-1291) [5]
Andrea I Dandulus (1291-1298) [6]
Ioannes II Dandulus (1298-1302) [7]
Marcus I Dandulus (1302-1318) [8]
[1] The Venetian Doge Enrico Dandolo was offered the title of Emperor by the Crusaders IOTL; here he accepts but his reign is short-reigned. I think the election of the Doge and his Venetian family would maybe negate the necessity of the Podesta. Crete is ceded to Venice and elsewhere remains nominally under Latin rule.
[2] Raniero was Enrico's eldest son and consigliere ducale, also known by Vice-Doge. He becomes Enrico's successor in Constantinople. His status as an admiral and statesmen would indicate that the Latin Empire would focus on centralizing its power over its feudal vassals and extending its reach to Asia Minor.
[3] Fantino was the younger brother to Raniero and the OTL Latin bishop in Constantinople. Here he holds title as bishop and Emperor, though the latter is to provide a placeholder for his nephew Gilberto. His status as bishop would indicate a greater focus on ecclesiastical affairs. A first attempt at bringing the Orthodox populations into the Catholic fold(?) Diplomacy re: Bulgaria mixed with attempts to convert the state into Catholicism. Mired with additional issues with vassals in Thessalonica, etc.
[4] Gilberto was Raniero's son. Assuming that his uncle and predecessor raises him right, he would be suited or not to the issues hoisted on him. Make or break. The Latin Empire collapses on schedule or is lucky enough to conquer the Empire of Nicaea and Epirus. Bulgaria could be placated by marrying Gilberto's sister Anna to the Tsar; she was married IOTL to the Serbian king Stefan I so precedent is there.
[5] Ioannes, or rather Giovanni, was OTL Doge of Venice. Given the POD and the time that passed since then, TTL's version of Giovanni grows up in Constantinople and sees himself more Roman than Venetian. The tail begins to wag the dog. Ioannes would opportunistically use revolts by Latin feudatories and Greeks in Crete and elsewhere in the Aegean to bring these lands back into Latin/Roman hands. Problems arise again with Bulgaria in Ioannes' twilight years.
[6] The divorce of the Latin Empire from its Venetian parent means that Constantinople lacks Catholic support internally and externally when it comes to dealing with the Bulgarians or the advancement of the Turkic tribes in Anatolia. Andrea's reign is short-lived and ends with a battle with the Bulgarians.
[7] Giovanni or rather Ioannes II inherits all the problems of his elder brother and father and yet offers no solutions besides attempting to rebuild ties with Venice. He successfully stops a Bulgarian invasion and presumed takeover by bringing the Tsar with treasures stolen from Constantinople's Orthodox churches. He is killed in a riot and replaced by his younger brother Marco.
[8] Marcus' short reign is focused on diplomatic overtures between Constantinople and its neighbors. Treaties between Marcus and neighboring kings show some success in the diplomatic front; some territories were returned to imperial administration such as Epirus and Cyprus. The wars against Venice, Bulgaria, Crusaders, Greeks, among others have long since decimated the Catholic aristocracy and the Greek Orthodox population is unwilling to send its sons to war under the Emperor's banner. Marcus intensifies the Latin Empire's reliance on Turkic mercenaries, promising half of the Empire's land to be handed over to Turkic warriors in exchange for military service. It would be his undoing. Marcus Dandulus was overthrown by his son-in-law Michael Osmanes, Grand Domestic of the Empire. Thus ends the reign of the Dandolo dynasty and the rule of the Ottoman emperors.
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Actually, Margarethe is likely to end up remarried to Louis XII (should he still be shackled to Jeanne de Valois and Anne of Brittany is unavailable). She's an emperor's daughter, known to the court and, if she brought Artois and Franche Comté with her as a dowry, having no kids means that AIUI her dad has a right to demand those be returned to imperial control.
Based on this thread. The general premise is that after everything with Tom Seymour, Edward VI decides its easiest to marry Elizabeth off to Robert Dudley (Amy can get Gilford ITTL). When Ed realizes he's dying he names his young Dudley nephew as heir and little Edward VII gets to keep his throne, unlike Jane Grey.
Robert Dudley (1532 - 1588) m. Elizabeth Tudor (1533 - 1603)
Robert Dudley (1532 - 1588) m. Elizabeth Tudor (1533 - 1603)
- Edward VII (1551 - 1609) m. Marguerite of Valois (1553 - 1615)
- stillborn girl (1552)
- Anne (1556 - 1568)
- Robert, Duke of York (1557 - 1575)
- Henry IX [originally Duke of Clarence](1561 - 1628) m. Elizabeth of Denmark (1573 - 1625)
- Stillborn Daughter (1591)
- Edward VIII (1592 - 1640)
- Henry, Duke of York (1595 - 1624)
- Sophia (1598 - 1599)
- Elizabeth (1600 - 1624)
- Stillborn twin girls (1602)
- Jane (1564 - 1612) m. James VI and I of Scotland (1566 - 1625)
- Elizabeth (1587 - 1624)
- Stillborn daughter (1589)
- Margaret (1590 - 1630)
- Henry Robert (1593 - 1599)
- Charles (1595 - 1640)
- Robert (1597 - 1601)
Theobald II of Navarre has issue.
Theobald II (1238-1270) King of Navarre m. 1255 Isabella of France (1241-1271)
1) Theobald III (1258-1313) King of Navarre 1270-1313 m. a) 1273 Constance of Castile (1258-1280) b) 1286 Yolande of Aragon (1273-1302) c) 1304 Joanna of Artois (1289-1350)
5c) Blanche (1309-1318)
Theobald II (1238-1270) King of Navarre m. 1255 Isabella of France (1241-1271)
1) Theobald III (1258-1313) King of Navarre 1270-1313 m. a) 1273 Constance of Castile (1258-1280) b) 1286 Yolande of Aragon (1273-1302) c) 1304 Joanna of Artois (1289-1350)
1a) Isabella (1276-1328) m. Philip IV (1271-1314) King of France
1) Margaret (1292-1354) m. Edward II (1284-1327) King of England
2) Louis X (1296-1321) King of France 1314-1321 m. Clementia of Hungary (1293-1328)
3) Philip V (1298-1337) King of France 1321-1337 m. Blanche of Burgundy (1296-1326)
4) Charles (1299-1305)
5) Blanche (1301-1364) m. Alfonso IV (1299-1337) King of Aragon
6) Isabella (1302-1314)
7) Robert (1304-1325)
2a) Theobald (1278-1296)
3b) Louis (1292-1300)
4c) Theobald IV (1307-1362) King of Navarre 1313-1362 m. Eleanor of Castile (1307-1359)
1) Theobald V (1328-1379) King of Navarre 1362-1379
2) Isabella (1331-1336)
3) Joanna (1333-1387)
5c) Blanche (1309-1318)
My version of Plantagenet Scotland: John, son of Edward I, survives and marries as his first wife ATL daughter of Philip III of France and Isabella of Aragon, then after her death he marries daughter of Alexander IV of Scotland (surviving son of Alexander III).
First Scotland:
Alexander IV (1264-1312) King of Scotland 1286-1312 m. Margaret of Flanders
1) Margaret (1288-1300)
2) Mary (1290-1322) Queen of Scotland 1312-1322 m. 1304 John II of England
3) Alexander (1295-1309)
4) David (1299-1308)
Now England:
John II (1266-1316) King of England 1307-1316, King of Scotland (with Mary) 1312-1316 m. a) 1280 Margaret of France* (1266-1302) b) 1304 Mary of Scotland (1290-1322)
1a) Edward (1288-1296)
2a) Eleanor (1290-1297)
3a) Joan (1291)
4a) Isabella (1294-1295)
5a) Henry (1296-1298)
6a) Eleanor (1298)
7a) Catherine (1300-1355) m. Reginald II of Guelders**
8a) John III (1302-1356) King of England 1316-1356 m. Constance of Castile*** (1308-1358)
9b) Alexander V (1308-1362) King of Scotland 1322-1362 m. Philippa of Hainaut
10b) William (1310-1335)
* Daughter of Philip III of France and Isabella of Aragon
** That Reginald II of Guelders has different mother than OTL one (OTL one was ITTL Queen of Scotland Margaret of Flanders
*** Daughter of Ferdinand IV of Castile
First Scotland:
Alexander IV (1264-1312) King of Scotland 1286-1312 m. Margaret of Flanders
1) Margaret (1288-1300)
2) Mary (1290-1322) Queen of Scotland 1312-1322 m. 1304 John II of England
3) Alexander (1295-1309)
4) David (1299-1308)
Now England:
John II (1266-1316) King of England 1307-1316, King of Scotland (with Mary) 1312-1316 m. a) 1280 Margaret of France* (1266-1302) b) 1304 Mary of Scotland (1290-1322)
1a) Edward (1288-1296)
2a) Eleanor (1290-1297)
3a) Joan (1291)
4a) Isabella (1294-1295)
5a) Henry (1296-1298)
6a) Eleanor (1298)
7a) Catherine (1300-1355) m. Reginald II of Guelders**
8a) John III (1302-1356) King of England 1316-1356 m. Constance of Castile*** (1308-1358)
9b) Alexander V (1308-1362) King of Scotland 1322-1362 m. Philippa of Hainaut
10b) William (1310-1335)
* Daughter of Philip III of France and Isabella of Aragon
** That Reginald II of Guelders has different mother than OTL one (OTL one was ITTL Queen of Scotland Margaret of Flanders
*** Daughter of Ferdinand IV of Castile
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(One of the) principal PoD(s): Ananda Mahidol was injured from a gunshot wound in an attempted murder; he survived the said attempt and continued his reign as the King of Thailand.
Ananda Mahidol of Thailand (Rama VIII, 1925-1995, reigned 1935-95) married Princess Phongkaeo Na Lamphun (1926-2011) on the 13th of December, 1950 in the Grand Palace of Bangkok
NOTES:
*The very first amendment to the 1924 Palace Succession Law, which was passed in 1952, right after the birth of the then Prince Thaksin, in which any potential successor to the Thai throne who took their name from the previous rulers of the country, regardless of the period, wouldn't inherit the posthoumus regnal name Rama; instead, their reign would be identified by their own personal name (as long as it came from the previous Thai monarchs). Thus, the ATL current Thai monarch was indeed identified as King Thaksin II, after Thaksin the Great.
**Another amendment to the 1924 Palace Succession Law passed in 1997, in which it allowed the (then hypothetical) eldest daughter of then Prince Adulakit, at the time the third in line to the Thai throne, as well as her potential descendants, to inherit the Thai crown.
***Royal fraternal twins.
****Because Prince Ramesuan had previously in both Thai film and television industry as a scriptwriter and director, he was also known within the same circle as Ramesuan na Ayodhya. Indeed, during breaks from their schedules, both Prince Ramesuan and his wife Chintara are both actively participating as members of the Thai royal family, particularly in relation to the performing arts.
Ananda Mahidol of Thailand (Rama VIII, 1925-1995, reigned 1935-95) married Princess Phongkaeo Na Lamphun (1926-2011) on the 13th of December, 1950 in the Grand Palace of Bangkok
- Thaksin II of Thailand* (b. 1951, reigned since 1995) married Princess Soamsawali Kitiyakara (b. 1957) on 12th August, 1982
- Crown Prince Adulakit (b. 1983) married Absornsaman Vejjajiva (b. 1987) on 5th of December, 2014
- Princess Sirikit** (b. 2014)
- Prince Ramathibodi (b. 2017)
- Prince Ananda (b. 2019)
- Prince Abhisit (b. 1986) married Nataya Lundberg (b. 1992) on 31st January, 2017
- Princess Nadya*** (b. 2017)
- Prince Sornram*** (b. 2017)
- Prince Chanchai (b. 1991)
- Crown Prince Adulakit (b. 1983) married Absornsaman Vejjajiva (b. 1987) on 5th of December, 2014
- Prince Attitayawong (b. 1955) married Lalisa Saewong (b. 1960) on 27th March, 1985
- Prince Tongchai (b. 1985) married Khemanit Jamikorn (b. 1988) on 29th April, 2016
- Prince Thawisan (b. 2017)
- Princess Busba (b. 1989)
- Prince Kalyanakit (b. 1992)
- Prince Tongchai (b. 1985) married Khemanit Jamikorn (b. 1988) on 29th April, 2016
- Prince Ramesuan**** (b. 1961) married Chintara Sukapatana (b. 1965) on 29th September, 1991
- Princess Chintara (b. 1992)
- Prince Adiphong (b. 1995)
- Prince Nopadon (b. 1999)
NOTES:
*The very first amendment to the 1924 Palace Succession Law, which was passed in 1952, right after the birth of the then Prince Thaksin, in which any potential successor to the Thai throne who took their name from the previous rulers of the country, regardless of the period, wouldn't inherit the posthoumus regnal name Rama; instead, their reign would be identified by their own personal name (as long as it came from the previous Thai monarchs). Thus, the ATL current Thai monarch was indeed identified as King Thaksin II, after Thaksin the Great.
**Another amendment to the 1924 Palace Succession Law passed in 1997, in which it allowed the (then hypothetical) eldest daughter of then Prince Adulakit, at the time the third in line to the Thai throne, as well as her potential descendants, to inherit the Thai crown.
***Royal fraternal twins.
****Because Prince Ramesuan had previously in both Thai film and television industry as a scriptwriter and director, he was also known within the same circle as Ramesuan na Ayodhya. Indeed, during breaks from their schedules, both Prince Ramesuan and his wife Chintara are both actively participating as members of the Thai royal family, particularly in relation to the performing arts.
Miracle of House of Dunkeld: Alexander III of Scotland has posthumous son with Yolande of Dreux.
Yolande of Dreux (1263-1330) m. Alexander III (1241-1286) King of Scotland
1) Alexander IV (1286-1349) King of Scotland 1286-1349 m. Joanna of Flanders (1295-1371)
Yolande of Dreux (1263-1330) m. Alexander III (1241-1286) King of Scotland
1) Alexander IV (1286-1349) King of Scotland 1286-1349 m. Joanna of Flanders (1295-1371)
1) Alexander (1319-1322)
2) William II (1322-1370) King of Scotland 1349-1370 m. Joan of England (1321-1362)
1) Alexander V (1343-1397) King of Scotland 1370-1397
2) Isabella (1345-1400)
3) Margaret (1349-1376)
5) William (1351-1354)
6) Edward (1353)
7) Eleanor (1356-1410)
2) David (1325)
3) Yolande (1326-1327)
4) Margaret (1329-1388) m. Edward, the Black Prince (1330-1379)
1) Edward (1351-1358)
2) Henry (1353)
3) William III (1356-1404) King of England 1377-1404
4) Philippa (1360-1431)
Louis, eldest son of Louis IX, survives father and succeedes French throne as Louis X
Louis X (1244-1302) King of France 1270-1302 King of Navarre 1285-1302 m. a) Berengaria of Castile (1253-1284) b) Joanna I of Navarre (1273-1305)
1a) Louis (1273-1277)
2a) Margaret (1274-1293) m. Alfonso III of Aragon (1265-1291)
3a) Philip (1276-1278)
4a) Louis (1278-1282)
5a) Blanche (1280-1336) m. Alphonso Plantagenet (1273-1306)
6a) Robert III (1282-1339) King of France 1302-1339 m. Eleanor of Naples (1289-1341)
7a) Louis (1284)
8b) Isabella (1289-1328) m. Ferdinand IV (1285-1312) King of Castile
9b) Agnes (1290-1300)
9b) Charles (1292-1297)
10b) Henry II (1295-1352) King of Navarre 1305-1352 m. Constance of Aragon (1300-1327)
11b) Joanna (1298-1362) m. Alfonso IV (1299-1336) King of Aragon
So Louis X is 'grandfather of Europe' ITTL. Navarre is quite briefly in union with France and soon gets its own Capetian line.
Louis X (1244-1302) King of France 1270-1302 King of Navarre 1285-1302 m. a) Berengaria of Castile (1253-1284) b) Joanna I of Navarre (1273-1305)
1a) Louis (1273-1277)
2a) Margaret (1274-1293) m. Alfonso III of Aragon (1265-1291)
3a) Philip (1276-1278)
4a) Louis (1278-1282)
5a) Blanche (1280-1336) m. Alphonso Plantagenet (1273-1306)
6a) Robert III (1282-1339) King of France 1302-1339 m. Eleanor of Naples (1289-1341)
7a) Louis (1284)
8b) Isabella (1289-1328) m. Ferdinand IV (1285-1312) King of Castile
9b) Agnes (1290-1300)
9b) Charles (1292-1297)
10b) Henry II (1295-1352) King of Navarre 1305-1352 m. Constance of Aragon (1300-1327)
11b) Joanna (1298-1362) m. Alfonso IV (1299-1336) King of Aragon
So Louis X is 'grandfather of Europe' ITTL. Navarre is quite briefly in union with France and soon gets its own Capetian line.
An idea that came to my mind not long ago (I'm not sure about all the matches though):
United Kingdom of Navarre (post 1793)
Louis XVI’s daughter Marie-Thérèse escapes with her aunt Elisabeth, flees to Austria and later Spain, is acknowledged as Queen of Navarre after the deaths of her father and brother, and marries Carlos de Borbón, Count of Molina (1788-1855).
Marie Thérèse of France, Queen of Navarre (1778-1851) m. (1802) Carlos de Borbón, King of Navarre (1788-1855) *
1) Carlos IV of Navarre (1807-1876) m. (1828) Maria Antonia of the Two-Sicilies (1814-1898)
1) Luis VII of Navarre (1822-1901) ** m. (1837) Maria Beatrix of Austria-Este (1824-1906)
2) Antonia Carlotta of Navarre (1825-1889) p. Henri d’Orléans (1822-1897)
3) Carlos Augusto of Navarre (1830-1856)
2) Maria Teresa of Navarre (1810-1864) m. (1826) Johann I, King of Saxony (1801-1873)
3) Maria Antonia of Navarre (1812-1884) m. (1829) Ferdinand Philippe I of France (1810-1894)
4) Luis Augusto of Navarre (1815-1846) m. (1837) Clementine of Orléans (1817-1907)
* After Fernando VII’s death in 1833, Carlos claimed the Spanish throne. During the First Carlist War, he successfully reunified Upper and Lower Navarre. He and Marie-Thérèse became the first rulers of the United Kingdom of Navarre.
** Marie Thérèse’s brother Louis being considered to have succeeded their father as King of France (Louis XVII) and Navarre (Louis VI) in 1793, the next Navarrese king named Louis is numbered VII.
United Kingdom of Navarre (post 1793)
Louis XVI’s daughter Marie-Thérèse escapes with her aunt Elisabeth, flees to Austria and later Spain, is acknowledged as Queen of Navarre after the deaths of her father and brother, and marries Carlos de Borbón, Count of Molina (1788-1855).
Marie Thérèse of France, Queen of Navarre (1778-1851) m. (1802) Carlos de Borbón, King of Navarre (1788-1855) *
1) Carlos IV of Navarre (1807-1876) m. (1828) Maria Antonia of the Two-Sicilies (1814-1898)
1) Luis VII of Navarre (1822-1901) ** m. (1837) Maria Beatrix of Austria-Este (1824-1906)
2) Antonia Carlotta of Navarre (1825-1889) p. Henri d’Orléans (1822-1897)
3) Carlos Augusto of Navarre (1830-1856)
2) Maria Teresa of Navarre (1810-1864) m. (1826) Johann I, King of Saxony (1801-1873)
3) Maria Antonia of Navarre (1812-1884) m. (1829) Ferdinand Philippe I of France (1810-1894)
4) Luis Augusto of Navarre (1815-1846) m. (1837) Clementine of Orléans (1817-1907)
* After Fernando VII’s death in 1833, Carlos claimed the Spanish throne. During the First Carlist War, he successfully reunified Upper and Lower Navarre. He and Marie-Thérèse became the first rulers of the United Kingdom of Navarre.
** Marie Thérèse’s brother Louis being considered to have succeeded their father as King of France (Louis XVII) and Navarre (Louis VI) in 1793, the next Navarrese king named Louis is numbered VII.
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According to what I've read there were plans to engage her to Fernando VII (not the decade younger Molina) and earlier, a betrothal to Carlos Domingo (b.1780) with the intention by Spin of doing this if Louis XVI had no son.
But then Louis Joseph was born in 1781, Carlos Domingo died in 1783, and Antoinette's sister, Maria Karoline started pushing for a double betrothal - Marie Thérèse to the duke of Calabria and Maria Amelia to Louis Joseph.
The question of course, is WHY this would happen? Philippe le Bel had three sons and it was only AFTER the last of them died that Jeanne II became queen of Navarre. So, in theory, even WERE such a separation possible (and IIRC Henri IV made it so it WASN'T), the Navarrese throne would go Louis XVI>XVII>XVIII.
Secondly, that the Orléans would still succeed in Paris or that Carlos "V" would allow his kids to marry into their family seems wildly ASB considering his personality and the GENERAL view most Catholic monarchies hadof the Orléans in general. Not to mention deterministic. If Marie Thérèse's unavailable, Angoulême will marry an Austrian archduchess as Franz II proposed (although the other part of this deal was for Teschen to wed Marie Thérèse), Maria Amalie (b.1780). And even IF Angoulême still has no issue, Berri will either marry earlier (he was sent to Naples in 1800 with the aim of marrying the OTL duchesse d'Orléans, but seduced her sister, the OTL queen of Sardinia instead; the scandal saw Berri packed off home WITHOUT either princess) once Amalie dies, if Angoulême's second marriage proves as barren as his first, or not at all (if Angoulême has sons of his own). Likely as not asecond wife for Angoulême will have to wait until the Restauration though, and Berri, even if he DOES marry legitimately, will most likely marry differently.
@The Professor
Marie Therese would marry Karl of Teschen if she not married Angouleme (but your idea of a Kingdom of Navarre (plus Brittany) can still work with Therese and Karl and their son married to Isabella of Spain’s younger sister... Angouleme will marry an Archduchess and at this point Berry’s match with any of the three available princesses of Naples (so including Maria Antonia not yet Princess of the Asturias) will be arranged and celebrated during their visit to Vienna with their mother in 1799.
True, he'd be more likely than his brother. And now that I think about it, Marie-Thérèse may be a better match than a fifth surviving daughter for him.
I'd read about a possible exclusion of women in the Navarrese succession after Louis XIII but it seems to be legally questionable, at least according to some people (here and here) and there's a pretender descended from the family in female line.
Hmm, right, no Orléans match then.
Hmm, the Luisa Fernanda match for Marie-Thérèse's son sounds very interesting. And I didn't even think of Brittany. A Navarrese-Breton union would be nice.
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See... Franz II had the power to get that Kingdom created and keep it alive after the Congress of Vienna but without him I see that difficult plus Carlos IV really wanted a daughter of his brother Ferdinand as daughter-in-law so Ferdinand VII‘s first wife would be most likely a princess of Naples in any scenario (and Antonia was the closest in age to Fernando).
So Madame Royale to Teschen, Angouleme to Archduchess Amalia and Berry to Amalia of Naples?
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@Brita @Kellan Sullivan
Regarding the numbering they will likely count Upper and Lower Navarre consecutively. Like how the various coDukes of Bavaria were named. So you'll need to add up all the French and Spanish Louises following the division. Or you could restart the numbering from the new union?
Succession wise the UK would probably reset to the apparent male preferred primogeniture Navarre had before France. Louis X/I's brothers got it mainly because they were powerful enough to claim brothers over daughters.
Regarding the numbering they will likely count Upper and Lower Navarre consecutively. Like how the various coDukes of Bavaria were named. So you'll need to add up all the French and Spanish Louises following the division. Or you could restart the numbering from the new union?
Succession wise the UK would probably reset to the apparent male preferred primogeniture Navarre had before France. Louis X/I's brothers got it mainly because they were powerful enough to claim brothers over daughters.