If her husband's at war with Karl V could that not be reason enough?
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Henry VIII(a) Catherine of Aragon div. 1533(a) Anne Boleyn div. 1536(b) Jane Seymour(b)
1a. Mary I b. 1516 d. 1558 m. Philip II
2a. Margaret b. 1518 d. 1542 m. George Boleyn d. 1536(a) Luis, Duke of Beja(b)
2a1a. Thomas Boleyn b. 1533 d. 1600
2a2b. Ana of Beja b. 1541
3b. Elizabeth I b. 1533
4b. Edward VI
1a. Mary I b. 1516 d. 1558 m. Philip II
2a. Margaret b. 1518 d. 1542 m. George Boleyn d. 1536(a) Luis, Duke of Beja(b)
2a1a. Thomas Boleyn b. 1533 d. 1600
2a2b. Ana of Beja b. 1541
3b. Elizabeth I b. 1533
4b. Edward VI
Uh, Thomas would succeed Mary in this case, not Elizabeth.
Also, the widow of George Boleyn, already with a son, would NOT marry the duke of Beja. Just saying.
Alternate Elizabeth I of England
Henry VII m. Elizabeth of York
1. Arthur same as IOTL
2. Margaret same as IOTL [1]
3. Henry VIII b. 1491 d. 1511 m. 1510 Katherine of Aragon
- no surviving issue -
4. Elizabeth b. 1492 m. 1510 Antoine of Lorraine b. 1589
- a) Henry IX b. 1510 m. Maria of Viseu b. 1521
- b) Rene III of Lorraine b. 1511 m. Dorothea of Denmark b. 1520
- c) Elizabeth b. 1512 m. 1530 Francis I of France b. 1494
- d) Margaret b. 1513 m. James V of Scotland b. 1512
- e) Edward b. 1514 m. Katherine Willoughby b. 1519
5. Mary same as IOTL
6. Edmund same as IOTL
7. Katherine same as IOTL
[1] Why didn't Margaret succeed? Well, she was already in Scotland and married to their king, and nobody wanted a union then
Henry VII m. Elizabeth of York
1. Arthur same as IOTL
2. Margaret same as IOTL [1]
3. Henry VIII b. 1491 d. 1511 m. 1510 Katherine of Aragon
- no surviving issue -
4. Elizabeth b. 1492 m. 1510 Antoine of Lorraine b. 1589
- a) Henry IX b. 1510 m. Maria of Viseu b. 1521
- b) Rene III of Lorraine b. 1511 m. Dorothea of Denmark b. 1520
- c) Elizabeth b. 1512 m. 1530 Francis I of France b. 1494
- d) Margaret b. 1513 m. James V of Scotland b. 1512
- e) Edward b. 1514 m. Katherine Willoughby b. 1519
5. Mary same as IOTL
6. Edmund same as IOTL
7. Katherine same as IOTL
[1] Why didn't Margaret succeed? Well, she was already in Scotland and married to their king, and nobody wanted a union then
Pretty sure it will be down to an unmarried Mary vs the married Margaret (Elizabeth is likely to end up as Fernando of Aragon's second wife or married to Christian II of Denmark IMO). Mary they can marry off to Richard de la Pole (ISTR there was even some talk of this at the French court when she was widowed), Henry Pole (son of Margaret of Clarence) or Henry Courtenay (son of Katherine of York), although Stafford and Norfolk will likewise throw their hats in the ring. Margaret succeeding depends if the Scots are at war with the English when Henry VIII dies, whether she and James have a surviving heir yet and whether he agrees to what is likely to be a raft of restrictions about what he can and can't do in England blah-blah. Elizabeth will only get a look in if she's still unwed
Henry VII had little to not trouble with the eventuality of Margaret’s succession in England and the Duke of Lorraine would be logistically a full disaster. Mary also will NOT marry as OTL in this scenario…
Agreed.
Henry VIII m. Catherine of Aragon div 1533(a) Anne Boleyn div 1536(b) Jane Seymour
1a. Mary I b. 1516 d. 1558 m. Philip II
2a. Lady Margaret 1518 d. 1550 m. Mathew Stewart, Duke of Lennox[1]
2a1a. Henry Stuart b. 1544 - 1600
3b. Elizabeth I b. 1533
4. Edward VI b. 1537
1.She and her descendants don’t regain succession rights and she gives up her succession rights to marry and have a normal life and never reclaimed it, Mathew Stewart’s OTL wife married Henry II of France.
1a. Mary I b. 1516 d. 1558 m. Philip II
2a. Lady Margaret 1518 d. 1550 m. Mathew Stewart, Duke of Lennox[1]
2a1a. Henry Stuart b. 1544 - 1600
3b. Elizabeth I b. 1533
4. Edward VI b. 1537
1.She and her descendants don’t regain succession rights and she gives up her succession rights to marry and have a normal life and never reclaimed it, Mathew Stewart’s OTL wife married Henry II of France.
Charles VIII dies in 1492, leaving an infant son.
Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1520) m. a) in 1491 Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1492) b) in 1496 John of Rohan, Duke of Brittany jure uxoris as John VI (1476-1505) c) in 1506 Henry VII Tudor (1457-1509)
Louis, Duke of Orléans (1462-1495) [3] m. Joan of France (1464-1505)
Henry VII Tudor, King of England (1457-1509) m. a) in 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) b) in 1506 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1520)
Charles X, King of France (formerly Count of Angoulême) (1459-1496) [4] m. Luisa of Savoy (1476-1531)
[1] Son of Guy XVI, Count of Laval, and Charlotte of Naples.
[2] I don't know if the given name Arthur is likely for a son of Henry VII after the Prince of Wales's death but Arthur was used by the Dukes of Brittany as well so...
[3] During her regency, Anne decides to claim the Kingdom of Naples in her son's name. The Duke of Orléans leads the French army into Italy but is killed fighting the Italic League.
[4] Catherine's 1511 and 1513 sons are born healthy and live past infancy, so no Great Matter for Henry.
[5] Born posthumously.
Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1520) m. a) in 1491 Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1492) b) in 1496 John of Rohan, Duke of Brittany jure uxoris as John VI (1476-1505) c) in 1506 Henry VII Tudor (1457-1509)
1a) Charles IX Orland, King of France (1492-1495)
2b) Francis of Brittany (1496-1497)
3b) Anne of Brittany (1499-1562) m. Anne, Duke of Montmorency (1493-1572)
4b) John VII, Duke of Brittany (1500-1543) m. Louise of France (1497-1522)
5b) Isabella of Brittany (1502-1557) m. Francis of Laval (1503-1522) [1]
6c) Arthur, Duke of Richmond [2] (1507-1561) m. Lady Mary Howard (1519-1557)
7c) Margaret of England (1508-1559) m. Henry II, King of Navarre (1503-1555)
Louis, Duke of Orléans (1462-1495) [3] m. Joan of France (1464-1505)
no issue
Henry VII Tudor, King of England (1457-1509) m. a) in 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) b) in 1506 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1520)
1a) Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502) m. Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536)
2a) Margaret of England (1489-1541) m. James IV of Scotland (1473-1513)
3a) Henry VIII, King of England (1491-1547) m. Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536) [4]
4a) Elizabeth (1492-1495)
5a) Mary of England (1496-1533) m. Francis I, King of France (1494-1547)
6a) Edmund (1499-1500)
7a) Catherine (1503)
8b) Arthur, Duke of Richmond (1507-1561) m. Lady Mary Howard (1519-1557)
9b) Margaret of England (1508-1559) m. Henry II, King of Navarre (1503-1555)
Charles X, King of France (formerly Count of Angoulême) (1459-1496) [4] m. Luisa of Savoy (1476-1531)
1a) Margaret of Angoulême (1492-1549) m. Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (1489-1544)
2a) Francis I, King of France (1494-1547) m. Mary Tudor (1496-1533)
3a) Louise of France (1497-1522) [5] m. John VII, Duke of Brittany (1500-1543)
[1] Son of Guy XVI, Count of Laval, and Charlotte of Naples.
[2] I don't know if the given name Arthur is likely for a son of Henry VII after the Prince of Wales's death but Arthur was used by the Dukes of Brittany as well so...
[3] During her regency, Anne decides to claim the Kingdom of Naples in her son's name. The Duke of Orléans leads the French army into Italy but is killed fighting the Italic League.
[4] Catherine's 1511 and 1513 sons are born healthy and live past infancy, so no Great Matter for Henry.
[5] Born posthumously.
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Habsburg tree:
Maximilian (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1511)
1a) Philip (1478-1506) Duke of Burgundy, King of Castile iure uxoris, m. Joanna of Castile (1479-1555)
2a) Margaret (1480-1530) m. a) John (1478-1497) Prince of Asturias, b) Philibert II (1480-1522) Duke of Savoy
3a) Francis (1481)
4c) Ernest (1496-1545) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1560)
5c) Eleanor (1498)
6c) Anna (1500-1554) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
** Daughter of Philip III and Anne of Lorraine
*** Daughter of ****
**** Son of John of Saxony and Elizabeth of Hesse, grandson of George the Bearded
Maximilian (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1511)
1a) Philip (1478-1506) Duke of Burgundy, King of Castile iure uxoris, m. Joanna of Castile (1479-1555)
1) Eleanor (1498-1558) m. Henry VIII (1491-1547) King of England
2) Charles (1500-1558) Duke of Burgundy, King of Spain, m. Mary of England (1496-1535)
3) Isabella (1501-1526) m. Christian II (1481-1559) King of Denmark
4) Maria (1503-1564) m. John III (1502-1557) King of Portugal
5) Margaret (1505-1558) m. Louis II (1506-1540) King of Bohemia and Hungary
6) Catherine (1507-1578) m. James V (1512-1551) King of Scotland
2a) Margaret (1480-1530) m. a) John (1478-1497) Prince of Asturias, b) Philibert II (1480-1522) Duke of Savoy
1b) Philip III (1503-1562) Duke of Savoy 1522, m. a) Beatrice of Portugal (1504-1534) b) Anne of Lorraine (1522-1568)
2b) Margaret (1505-1509)
3b) Philiberta (1506-) m. Francis II Sforza (1495-1435) Duke of Milan
3a) Francis (1481)
4c) Ernest (1496-1545) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1560)
1) Maximilian II (1526-1555) Holy Roman Emperor 1545, m. Isabella of Spain (1526-1580)*
2) Rudolf II (1529-1579) Holy Roman Emperor 1555, m. a) Mechthild of Bavaria (1532-1565) b) Philippa of Savoy (1549-1602)**
3) Mary (1531)
4) Leopold (1533-1535)
5) Albert (1535-1587) Archduke of Tyrol, m. Elizabeth of Saxony (1542-1581) ***
6) Anna (1539-1543)
5c) Eleanor (1498)
6c) Anna (1500-1554) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
1) Sigismund II (1518-1554) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1548
2) Elizabeth (1520-1584) m. John George (1520-1579) Duke of Saxony****
3) Sophia (1522-1590) m. Albert (1522-1574) Margrave of Brandenburg-Kulmbach
4) Anna (1523-1602) m. Charles Philip (1525-1584) Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel
5) Casimir V (1526-1589) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1554, m. Cecilia of Sweden (1540-1627)
6) Catherine (1528-1593) m. Louis III (1527-1586) King of Bohemia and Hungary
* Daughter of Charles Habsburg and Mary Tudor** Daughter of Philip III and Anne of Lorraine
*** Daughter of ****
**** Son of John of Saxony and Elizabeth of Hesse, grandson of George the Bearded
Arthur will NOT be Duke of York as: a) that title will belong to the Prince of Wales until it will be merged in the crown when he will become Henry VIII and b) Henry VII had many choices available for his younger son from his family (Richmond, Somerset, Bedford, Pembroke) so he will not use a title tied to his first wife’s family in any case
Margaret as royal princess will not marry either Alencon or Navarre. She will get a foreign match to a King or ruler
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True, and Richmond would do very well for a son of Anne.
Actually I pulled a Claude of France as far as she was concerned - marrying her brother's heir just like Claude married her father's heir OTL. Though I suppose Emperor Karl V would do.
Actually in OTL after Henry VII made Henry the Prince of Wales, he annulled that creation of the Duke of York so it could be used for a second son if he ever had one, so ALT Arthur could be the Duke of York.
WI: James, Duke of Rothesay, son of James V and Marie of Guise survives.
James V of Scotland (1512-1542) m. Madeline of France (1520-1537) m. Marie of Guise (1515-1560)
1b. James VI of Scotland (1540-1608) m. Cecily I of England (1541-1604) [1]
2b. Arthur, Duke of Ross (1541-1541)
3b. Mary of Scotland (1542-) m. Francis II of France (1544-1560) [3]
[1] Daughter of Henry VIII and Kathryn Howard. Mary I dies giving birth to a dead daughter in 1556, and Elizabeth dies in 1558 from smallpox. Elizabeth arranges the marriage to James for Cecily.
[2] Succeeds his parents as King of Scotland and England.
[3] He dies as OTL, but leaves Mary pregnant, it is not a son, but Catherine is a healthy and beautiful child, cherished by her mother and paternal grandmother.
James V of Scotland (1512-1542) m. Madeline of France (1520-1537) m. Marie of Guise (1515-1560)
1b. James VI of Scotland (1540-1608) m. Cecily I of England (1541-1604) [1]
1a. Margaret of Scotland (1557-)
2a. Mary of Scotland (1559-1559)
3a. Edmund I of England and Scotland (1560-) [2]
4a. James, Duke of York (1561-1564)
5a. Robert, Duke of Ross (1565-)
6a. Henry, Duke of Somerset (1567-)
2b. Arthur, Duke of Ross (1541-1541)
3b. Mary of Scotland (1542-) m. Francis II of France (1544-1560) [3]
1a. Catherine of France (1560-)
[1] Daughter of Henry VIII and Kathryn Howard. Mary I dies giving birth to a dead daughter in 1556, and Elizabeth dies in 1558 from smallpox. Elizabeth arranges the marriage to James for Cecily.
[2] Succeeds his parents as King of Scotland and England.
[3] He dies as OTL, but leaves Mary pregnant, it is not a son, but Catherine is a healthy and beautiful child, cherished by her mother and paternal grandmother.
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I imagine because she had a child she is safer here. I will say she survives until the 1580s, remarrying to a minor noble and having a large brood of children.
Margaret of Angouleme is too old for Charles V and Beatrice of Portugal will marry a ruler not a second son
Then your whole tree do not work. If Katheryn Howard is Henry’s last Queen, the Third Act of Succession is butterflied and is likely who at least Mary will not be restored to the line of succession and in any case Cecily would be ahead of her half-sisters