List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[VVD0D95]

Maybe switch around Anne and Charles? That way Charles gets an extra confident boost in the beginning of his reign with a son from the beginning?

Sounds good to me

so we’d have:


Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland (b.1600) m Sophie of Denmark (b.1605) in 1622

issue

Charles, James, Prince of wales (b.1623)

Princess Anne of England (b.1624)

miscarriage (1626)

James, Duke of York and Albany (b.1627)

miscarriage (1629)

Henry, Duke of Gloucester and Ross (b.1632)

Princess Sophie of England (b.1635)

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Four Wives of Charles V (AU)

Charles V b. 1500 d. 1558 m. 1514 d. 1526 Mary Tudor [a] m. 1526 d. 1535 Isabella of Portugal m. 1535 [1] d. 1540 Louise of France [c] m. 1540 [2] d. 1558 Mary I of England [d]

1a) Charles b. 1516 m. Isabella Jagiellon b. 1519
2a) miscarriage
3a) Elizabeth b. 1518 m. [3] Henry II of France b. 1519
4a) Ferdinand b. 1519 m. Amalia of Cleves b. 1517
5a) Ernest b. 1520 m. Catherine de' Medici b. 1519
6a) Margaret b. 1521 d. 1522
7a) miscarriage
b) see IOTL
11c) Louise b. 1536 m. Frederick III [4] b. 1536
12c) Claude b. 1538 m. Emmanuel Philibert b. 1528
13c) miscarriage
14c) Francoise b. 1540 d. 1541
15d) Henry b. 1541 m. Anna of Austria b. 1549
16d) Katherine b. 1542 m. John III of Sweden b. 1537
17d) miscarriage

[1] Suggested IOTL but she died too young. ITTL she marries at 20 because of betrothal messes.
[2] Edward Tudor died in 1540 and a devastated Henry soon died of grief or illness. Mary seized the throne and married Charles, as Philip was too young for marriage and she needed heirs STAT in order to prevent Elizabeth from succeeding her.
[3] This marriage was BEFORE Charles' marriage to Louise, and he got dispensation to wed Louise
[4] Son of Frederick II Elector Palatine and Dorothea of Denmark
...actually, would he need dispensation for marrying his dead wife's niece/his first cousin?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

[1] Suggested IOTL but she died too young. ITTL she marries at 20 because of betrothal messes.

by 1535, Isabel of Portugal is likely in a convent already. By 1540, Louise is already married to either Henry VIII (as second wife she'd be a far more powerful punch than Anne Boleyn) or she'd be wed to James V instead of her sickly sister (François I was willing to dower a Bourbon daughter "as if a princess" to avoid Madeleine going to Scotland, if he has another daughter available, he'll push her instead). Re: the Henry VIII-Anne Boleyn struggle, it'd be better to have Katherine of Aragon die in childbirth or something, since Henry pissing off his wife's nephew is a very big difference to pissing off a brother-in-law who has a conveniently aged son with a claim to the English throne.

Amalie of Cleves is too low for Karl V's son. Actually, all of the matches for Karl-Mary's kids are wrong. Isabella would not be wasted on a second son as Bona wanted her to be a queen (where didn't particularly matter), so switch she and Amalie (who can squeak in for a second son by the Treaty of Venlo when her brother makes nice with Karl). Henri II is too low for Karl's daughter (if his brother is still alive, which, given a POD in 1514, the idea that Dauphin François would still die on schedule, is IMO a stretch). Caterina de Medici is definitely too low for an archduke-infante (she's essentially a commoner who happens to be the pope's niece. Her mother's lands are beneficial to the French, not so much to the Habsburgs). And don't get me started on Carlos of Navarre.

Karl V-Louise's daughters: Johan III of Sweden is like a combination of Caterina de Medici and Carlos of Navarre - a second son who also happens to be the son of a "commoner". She marries Erik XIV or no dice, and since Eric would likely be more interested in Friedrich II of the Palatinate's daughter/Kristina of Denmark's daughter, I don't particularly see it happening. Françoise (Franziska/Francisca) will not marry Francesco de Medici, Karl V's OTL daughter called him "the little Florentine grocer's boy" when he proposed, and, TBH, Francesco probably would do better to go for a son of Ernst and Caterina de Medici. Assuming of course that Karl V hasn't forced his illegitimate daughter to remarry to Cosimo I (she refused OTL) or that Alessandro il Moro wasn't successful in his pursuit of Margaret Douglas/Kristina of Denmark for a wife and wound up leaving her pregnant when he was assassinated.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

by 1535, Isabel of Portugal is likely in a convent already. By 1540, Louise is already married to either Henry VIII (as second wife she'd be a far more powerful punch than Anne Boleyn) or she'd be wed to James V instead of her sickly sister (François I was willing to dower a Bourbon daughter "as if a princess" to avoid Madeleine going to Scotland, if he has another daughter available, he'll push her instead). Re: the Henry VIII-Anne Boleyn struggle, it'd be better to have Katherine of Aragon die in childbirth or something, since Henry pissing off his wife's nephew is a very big difference to pissing off a brother-in-law who has a conveniently aged son with a claim to the English throne.

Amalie of Cleves is too low for Karl V's son. Actually, all of the matches for Karl-Mary's kids are wrong. Isabella would not be wasted on a second son as Bona wanted her to be a queen (where didn't particularly matter), so switch she and Amalie (who can squeak in for a second son by the Treaty of Venlo when her brother makes nice with Karl). Henri II is too low for Karl's daughter (if his brother is still alive, which, given a POD in 1514, the idea that Dauphin François would still die on schedule, is IMO a stretch). Caterina de Medici is definitely too low for an archduke-infante (she's essentially a commoner who happens to be the pope's niece. Her mother's lands are beneficial to the French, not so much to the Habsburgs). And don't get me started on Carlos of Navarre.

Karl V-Louise's daughters: Johan III of Sweden is like a combination of Caterina de Medici and Carlos of Navarre - a second son who also happens to be the son of a "commoner". She marries Erik XIV or no dice, and since Eric would likely be more interested in Friedrich II of the Palatinate's daughter/Kristina of Denmark's daughter, I don't particularly see it happening. Françoise (Franziska/Francisca) will not marry Francesco de Medici, Karl V's OTL daughter called him "the little Florentine grocer's boy" when he proposed, and, TBH, Francesco probably would do better to go for a son of Ernst and Caterina de Medici. Assuming of course that Karl V hasn't forced his illegitimate daughter to remarry to Cosimo I (she refused OTL) or that Alessandro il Moro wasn't successful in his pursuit of Margaret Douglas/Kristina of Denmark for a wife and wound up leaving her pregnant when he was assassinated.

Got it, edited the TL.
In 1535 Isabella of Portugal dies giving birth to Joanna of Austria while she marries Charles in 1526 like IOTL. In 1540 Louise is dead so she cannot remarry. Re: Henry/Anne, it will not happen because ITTL Henry is not stupid enough to divorce Katherine with his brother-in-law and son on the horizon waiting to pounce on the English crown. Katherine dies in 1536, Henry marries Jane, they have Edward together and Jane dies in childbirth. Edward dies very young and Mary succeeds as queen. Louise was betrothed to Charles, not James, and Charles is by far the more useful match. No clue who Francoise and Margaret COULD marry, so they can die as infants, I suppose.

 

[Jonathan]

@VVD0D95 here is my take on the list still working on a foreign Princess bride for CJ and a domestic heiress for HF

Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland (b.1600, r. 1625, d. 1660) m. 1622, Sophie of Denmark (b.1605, d. 1666)

1) Charles James, Prince of Wales (b.1623, r. 1660, d. 1681) m.​

2) Princess Anne of England (b.1624, d. 1685) m. Prince Rupert of the Rhine, Duke of Cumberland (b. 1619, d. 1682)​

3) Miscarriage (1626)​

4) James Christian, Duke of York and Albany (b. 1627, d. 1686) m. Princess Sophia of the Palatinate; (b. 1630, d. 1714)​

5) miscarriage (1629)​

6) Henry Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Ross (b. 1632, ) m.​

8) Princess Sophie of England (b.1635, 1686) m. William II, Prince of Orange (b. 1626, d. 1650)​

 

[Gevher]

François I of France (b.1494;d.1547) m. Eleanor of Austria, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498;d.1558) in 1530

1) Philippe of Valois (1531-)
2) Jeanne of Valois (1535-)
3) miscarriage 1537
4) Louise of Valois (1540-)
5) Elisabeth of Valois (1544-)

* I imagine that François and Eleanor consummated their marriage, which resulted in a child and on the death of the Dauphin François in 1536, François I attempted to have another child with his wife, but the rest of his childre resulted in daughters.

* Philippe would prevent the House of Valois from ending after Henri III of France, but who would be his wife? And who would Jeanne, Louise and Elisabeth marry?

*Eleanor also had two healthy children with King Manuel of Portugal, Infante Carlos died almost when he was a year old, which was sadly common in children of the time, so she was able to have healthy children like Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

François I of France (b.1494;d.1547) m. Eleanor of Austria, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498;d.1558) in 1530

1) Philippe of Valois (1531-)
2) Jeanne of Valois (1535-)
3) miscarriage 1537
4) Louise of Valois (1540-)
5) Elisabeth of Valois (1544-)

* I imagine that François and Eleanor consummated their marriage, which resulted in a child and on the death of the Dauphin François in 1536, François I attempted to have another child with his wife, but the rest of his childre resulted in daughters.

* Philippe would prevent the House of Valois from ending after Henri III of France, but who would be his wife? And who would Jeanne, Louise and Elisabeth marry?

*Eleanor also had two healthy children with King Manuel of Portugal, Infante Carlos died almost when he was a year old, which was sadly common in children of the time, so she was able to have healthy children like Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu.

Eleanor giving birth at 46? Damn.
Philippe could probably marry Elizabeth Tudor IF Mary or Edward had issue. If not, then he will marry Catherine of Austria (IOTL Queen consort of Poland).

 

[Gevher]

Eleanor giving birth at 46? Damn.
Philippe could probably marry Elizabeth Tudor IF Mary or Edward had issue. If not, then he will marry Catherine of Austria (IOTL Queen consort of Poland).

Lo siento¡!! I was inspired by a close friend of my mom who had a son at that age and I wanted to use it but I can edit it JAJDJAJSJA And I like the idea of an Elizabeth Tudor as a wife for a boy related to her own half-sister, Mary

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Lo siento¡!! I was inspired by a close friend of my mom who had a son at that age and I wanted to use it but I can edit it JAJDJAJSJA And I like the idea of an Elizabeth Tudor as a wife for a boy related to her own half-sister, Mary

Oh no it's fine, it's just unusual to me because women, where I'm from, do not tend to give birth at such an age. Elizabeth as the eventual queen of France greatly amuses me. Louise can probably marry Charles II of Austria (who IOTL wed his niece). Elisabeth for Don Carlos? IOTL he was going to wed Elisabeth of Valois (Henri II's daughter) who later became his stepmother. Jeanne...would Joao Manuel work?

 

[isabella]

Got it, edited the TL.
In 1535 Isabella of Portugal dies giving birth to Joanna of Austria while she marries Charles in 1526 like IOTL. In 1540 Louise is dead so she cannot remarry. Re: Henry/Anne, it will not happen because ITTL Henry is not stupid enough to divorce Katherine with his brother-in-law and son on the horizon waiting to pounce on the English crown. Katherine dies in 1536, Henry marries Jane, they have Edward together and Jane dies in childbirth. Edward dies very young and Mary succeeds as queen. Louise was betrothed to Charles, not James, and Charles is by far the more useful match. No clue who Francoise and Margaret COULD marry, so they can die as infants, I suppose.

Charles’ son would have exactly ZERO claim to be Henry VIII’s heir as EVERYONE would put James V of Scotland BEFORE him (as he was son of Henry’s elder sister) and both his sisters being mothers of foreign rulers would be an extra push for Henry to free himself earlier from Catherine, if anything. Louise of France here would NEVER be engaged to Charles (ass he married Mary Tudor before his OTL engagement to Louise). Here either Louise or Charlotte would be engaged to Charles and Mary‘s son (like the younger Mary Tudor), with the other most likely promised to James V in the treaty of Rouen

 

[Gevher]

Oh no it's fine, it's just unusual to me because women, where I'm from, do not tend to give birth at such an age. Elizabeth as the eventual queen of France greatly amuses me. Louise can probably marry Charles II of Austria (who IOTL wed his niece). Elisabeth for Don Carlos? IOTL he was going to wed Elisabeth of Valois (Henri II's daughter) who later became his stepmother. Jeanne...would Joao Manuel work?

I like the idea that both father and son (Philip II and Don Carlos) are married to Valois princesses, an irony for the rivalry between Carlos V and François I that they had for years. Although if Elizabeth Tudor becomes queen of England after the death of Mary I, would the eldest or second son be Elizabeth's heir?

João Manuel for Jeanne, leaving one or two children after his death and Jeanne as the regent with Catalina of Austria. And for Louise, it's okay Charles II of Austria, maybe I was thinking of Francesco I de Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany for her though.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I like the idea that both father and son (Philip II and Don Carlos) are married to Valois princesses, an irony for the rivalry between Carlos V and François I that they had for years. Although if Elizabeth Tudor becomes queen of England after the death of Mary I, would the eldest or second son be Elizabeth's heir?

João Manuel for Jeanne, leaving one or two children after his death and Jeanne as the regent with Catalina of Austria. And for Louise, it's okay Charles II of Austria, maybe I was thinking of Francesco I de Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany for her though.

Elizabeth is only marrying into France if Mary has issue. She would NEVER risk handing England over to France otherwise. If Mary does have issue but they don't survive, Elizabeth is succeeding as queen with her second son as heir - first son has to inherit France.

 

[Gevher]

Elizabeth is only marrying into France if Mary has issue. She would NEVER risk handing England over to France otherwise. If Mary does have issue but they don't survive, Elizabeth is succeeding as queen with her second son as heir - first son has to inherit France.

In a scenario where María I and Felipe II have children, I don't think more than one because of María's age (and I won't repeat the unusual case of Leonor), they agree to marry Isabel to Philippe in (1556/ 1557?) since the queen has her own heir. The prince, Enrique or Carlos?, would be born in 1554 and could succeed Mary as king in 1558 but the child would live a short life and die in 1562, leaving Elizabeth as the next queen.

The funniest thing is that we would have English kings of Valois, Enrique VIII would roll over in his grave if he knew and that satisfies me more, he is not my favorite king

 

[Gevher]

In a scenario where María I and Felipe II have children, I don't think more than one because of María's age (and I won't repeat the unusual case of Eleanor), they agree to marry Isabel to Philippe in (1556/ 1557?) since the queen has her own heir. The prince, Henry or Charles?, would be born in 1554 and could succeed Mary as king in 1558 but the child would live a short life and die in 1562, leaving Elizabeth as the next queen.

The funniest thing is that we would have English kings of Valois, Henry VIII would roll over in his grave if he knew and that satisfies me more, he is not my favuorite king

sorry, it is natural for me to write the names in my native language.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

In a scenario where María I and Felipe II have children, I don't think more than one because of María's age (and I won't repeat the unusual case of Leonor), they agree to marry Isabel to Philippe in (1556/ 1557?) since the queen has her own heir. The prince, Enrique or Carlos?, would be born in 1554 and could succeed Mary as king in 1558 but the child would live a short life and die in 1562, leaving Elizabeth as the next queen.

The funniest thing is that we would have English kings of Valois, Enrique VIII would roll over in his grave if he knew and that satisfies me more, he is not my favorite king

I mean, Mary married Philip when she was 38, which is NOWHERE near as old as 46. She can have twins, even. But, if she has only one son (NOT Charles since Philip has son called Charles already) probably named Henry. Why 1562 specifically? Elizabeth by then would probably be mother of, like, 5 kids (unless she inherited her mother's garbage fertility and miscarried a lot). If she only has daughters though...

 

[VVD0D95]

@VVD0D95 here is my take on the list still working on a foreign Princess bride for CJ and a domestic heiress for HF

Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland (b.1600, r. 1625, d. 1660) m. 1622, Sophie of Denmark (b.1605, d. 1666)

1) Charles James, Prince of Wales (b.1623, r. 1660, d. 1681) m.​

2) Princess Anne of England (b.1624, d. 1685) m. Prince Rupert of the Rhine, Duke of Cumberland (b. 1619, d. 1682)​

3) Miscarriage (1626)​

4) James Christian, Duke of York and Albany (b. 1627, d. 1686) m. Princess Sophia of the Palatinate; (b. 1630, d. 1714)​

5) miscarriage (1629)​

6) Henry Frederick, Duke of Gloucester and Ross (b. 1632, ) m.​

8) Princess Sophie of England (b.1635, 1686) m. William II, Prince of Orange (b. 1626, d. 1650)​

Ooh awesome Henry could perhaps marry Anne Hamilton duchess of Hamilton? If her dad and uncle both still die without male issue.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Sebastian I of Portugal b. 1554 m. 1568 Margaret of Valois b. 1553

1. miscarriage
2. John b. 1571 d. 1571
3. miscarriage
4. Sebastian b. 1574 d. 1575
5. stillborn
6. Catarina I of Portugal b. 1578 m. Philip III of Spain b. 1578

For my newest and final, I swear to God TL. Does this look plausible?

 

[isabella]

Sebastian I of Portugal b. 1554 m. 1568 Margaret of Valois b. 1553

1. miscarriage
2. John b. 1571 d. 1571
3. miscarriage
4. Sebastian b. 1574 d. 1575
5. stillborn
6. Catarina I of Portugal b. 1578 m. Philip III of Spain b. 1578

For my newest and final, I swear to God TL. Does this look plausible?

Work for me… Joana is a likelier name for the daughter but Catarina is not a bad choice

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Work for me… Joana is a likelier name for the daughter but Catarina is not a bad choice

Catarina works for both Sebastian's grandmother and Margaret's mother, I figured I should just give in and go with that - there is a scene in the TL I'll write where they bicker over the name and ultimately Joana is the middle name.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Elizabeth as the eventual queen of France greatly amuses me. Louise can probably marry Charles II of Austria (who IOTL wed his niece). Elisabeth for Don Carlos? IOTL he was going to wed Elisabeth of Valois (Henri II's daughter) who later became his stepmother. Jeanne...would Joao Manuel work?

Louise to Karl of Austria can work, but it'll need the right POD and be rather dependent on Henri II's relationship with his half-siblings/stepmom. As for the remainder:

Philippe likely gets Mary, QoS if she's still born (while it doesn't have the same punch as the dauphin, Philippe would be an adult and presumably minus the health issues OTL François II had). Another alternative might be Jeanne d'Albret, but again, would depend on his relationship with his half-brother.
His sisters would probably get Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy (who was gunning for Élisabeth de Valois after Edward VI died and got "fobbed off" with Marguerite), the Duke of Ferrara (as a second wife) and potentially Francesco I de Medici (his dad tried for a French proxy before he went with a Habsburg). Failing Savoy or Tuscany, the girls could be married in either Germany (Bavaria, maybe) or the Netherlands. One MIGHT take Anna d'Este's place as a potential bride for Sigismund II of Poland, but I defer to @Jan Olbracht and @Zygmunt Stary on whether Bona Sforza will agree to it