List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
I see you’ve changed the names a bit since our discussion
I must say I prefered the old ones more. I’m not sure how likely it would be that Charles would name his first born after his brotherDeleted member 147978
Possibly to remember his late brother by.I see you’ve changed the names a bit since our discussion
VVD0D95
Banned
Aha aye. And give. How much Charles seemed to idolise Henry, I don’t think it’s too far if a stretchI see you’ve changed the names a bit since our discussion
POD: Philip of Burgundy outlives his father.
Philip I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1478) m. 1496 Joanna, Queen of Castile, Leon and Aragon (b. 1479)
1. Eleanor (b. 1498) m. Miguel da Paz (b. 1498)
2. Charles V (b. 1500) m. Isabella of Portugal (b. 1503)
3. Isabella (b. 1501) m. Christian III of Denmark (b. 1503)
4. Ferdinand (b. 1503) m. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (b. 1503)
5. Mary (b. 1505) m. Louis II of Hungary (b. 1506)
6. Catherine (b. 1507) m. John III of Portugal (b. 1502)
7. John (b. 1510) m. Renee of France (b. 1510)
8. Maximilian (b. 1512) m. Isabella of Navarre (b. 1512)
9. Joanna (b. 1513) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512)
10. Frederick (b. 1516) m. Mary I of England (b. 1516)
Philip I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1478) m. 1496 Joanna, Queen of Castile, Leon and Aragon (b. 1479)
1. Eleanor (b. 1498) m. Miguel da Paz (b. 1498)
2. Charles V (b. 1500) m. Isabella of Portugal (b. 1503)
3. Isabella (b. 1501) m. Christian III of Denmark (b. 1503)
4. Ferdinand (b. 1503) m. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (b. 1503)
5. Mary (b. 1505) m. Louis II of Hungary (b. 1506)
6. Catherine (b. 1507) m. John III of Portugal (b. 1502)
7. John (b. 1510) m. Renee of France (b. 1510)
8. Maximilian (b. 1512) m. Isabella of Navarre (b. 1512)
9. Joanna (b. 1513) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512)
10. Frederick (b. 1516) m. Mary I of England (b. 1516)
A surviving Miguel would inherit Castile and Aragon ahead of Joanna… Renee and Mary will NOT marry younger sons when they can be married to rulers…
Christian III of Denmark will NOT get Isabella as bride as Austria will NOT waste an Archduchess to someone who had not secured his crown
Catherine to John made no sense when Eleanor married Miguel (who is King of Castile, Aragon and Portugal)
VVD0D95
Banned
Building on this:
Edward V of England (b.1465) m Anne of France (b.1461) in 1479
Issue:
Elizabeth of Westminster (b.1481)
Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1482)
stillborn daughter (b.1484: d.1484)
Richard, Duke of Cambridge (b.1487)
stillborn son (b.1489: d.1489)
Anne of York (b.1492)
Cecily of Eltham (b.1494)
Edmund, Duke of Rutland (b.1497)
Love this. But would Anne have such a large brood though? Mean...she only had (potentially) two children in her whole marriage OTL, and there doesn't seem to be indication that those were interspersed with miscarriages or stillbirths.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm, is it possible there were compatibility issues fertility wise between her and her husband? Altermatively I suppose there could be three kids spaced out over a few years?
@isabella
How about this:
Eleanor (dependent on whether Juana inherits Spain or not) to either Manuel or Joao III of Portugal (if she does) or to Antoine of Lorraine or Sigismund of Poland (if Juana doesn't). Or a third wife for Louis XII (if Karl winds up with Mary Tudor).
Karl V will likely marry Mary Tudor or Renée here (or Anne of Bohemia), since his dad will be the one deciding his marriage.
Isabella will still get her OTL husband if she's to get a Danish match.
Ferdinand to Isabel of Portugal (if Juana's to inherit Spain; if Miguel da Paz survives, Juana's not inheriting Spain and Ferdinand will be named for his other grandfather in all likelihood). Otherwise, Ferdinand likely gets a match to Anne of Bohemia (if Karl doesn't marry her), or a Bavarian princess
Mary to Lajos II of Hungary makes sense for if the First Congress of Vienna still happens
Katharina...perhaps a Polish match? If Sigismund of Poland marries Katharina of Mecklenburg as OTL? Or maybe...a Milanese match?
John (weird name for the Habsburgs who tended to attempt to avoid the name. Given that Juana la Loca originally wanted to name Karl V this and failed, I don't see that she's going to have any better luck with another son. Maybe Ernst or Friedrich instead). He probably gets named "governor/duke" of Wurttemberg when the Wurttembergers chase Duke Ulrich out. If that is the case, I could see "John" wed to a surviving Anna of Württemberg (Ulrich's daughter, b.1513). Particularly if her dad and brother happen to die in trying to reclaim their crown. Anna's mom is a Bavarian princess and cousin of Philipp of Austria so it wouldn't be an absolute stretch for such a match to happen.
As forMaximilian and Friedrich, they'lll likely end up in the church in a similar way to Maximilian II's sons. There simply wasn't enough land to go around Karl's getting Burgundy/Empire; Ferdinand's getting Austria/Bohemia; John's getting Württemberg. What's left for Max and Freddie? So...getting them in as archbishop of Cologne/Mainz/Trier I could definitely see being on the Habsburg agenda. Especially since, short of Henry VIII dying in 1517, there's no way of ensuring that Mary will be queen of England. And in such a scenario, a likelier husband for Mary will either be James V of Scotland or a son of Karl V and Mary Tudor.
Agreed. Still Eleanor’s match to Manuel is out of question in this scenario… Specially as she will not have the OTL failed engagement to Henry VIII (who will marry her if Juana inherited Spain)
Eleanor was engaged to the future Henry VIII, around 1508-1509 but when his father died Henry choose to marry Catherine instead of waiting for Eleanor.
With Philip alive is impossible who Henry will be able to get away with rejecting the best match of Europe for her aunt (and they will be likely engaged earlier than OTL). If Miguel lived and Joanna never inherited Spain, Castile will pay Catherine’s dowry so her engagement to Henry will not be broken and they will marry when was originally planned (meaning who Eleanor will be likely married to the Duke of Lorraine)
There's rarely any conclusive evidence to why people didn't have more or fewer kids that far back, nothing that can't easily be handwaved if it's for the good of a scenario anyaway.
This or any multitude of reasons. One of her otl pregnancies may have damaged her reproductive systems, or some other medical condition of her or her husband, or maybe there just wasn't that much 'married life' between them.
Given the avaliable information I'd say she could plausibly have as many or as few children as the scenario dictates.
VVD0D95
Banned
A little more elaboration:
Elizabeth of York(b.1466) m Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1483
Issue:
Frederick, Archduke of Austria (b.1484)
Elizabeth of Austria (b.1485)
stillborn son (b.1487: d.1487)
Maximilian, Archduke of Austria (b.1489)
Ernst, Archduke of Austria (b.1491)
stillborn son (b.1493: d.1493)
Mary of Austria (b.1496)