Well the thing is both of those were connected with mary de bohun's inheritance...i'm thinking mary and her sister eleanor will be born as iotl and one of them would certainly make sense of john so he could very well be duke of hereford.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Deleted member 147978
John of Burford would definitely get the De Bohun Inheritance ITTL.
Very in character for her
My only issue with this is that technically maximilian i and the hungarian jagiellons had a pact of mutual succession - that is, if maxi's male line dies out then louis ii can inherit austria automatically. also does margaret hold burgundy in the name of eleanor? i find it more likely that the burgundian estates would proclaim isabella to be duchess, especially considering as at this point she was literally right there in denmark.
Ok so you like that idea then. I'm thinking john would marry eleanor and mary can marry ttl richard of bordeaux.
Again, I'm writing broad strokes, and by the 1530s that's where I see it ending up. But yeah, there's definitely some scuffling to get Austria and Burgundy as the dust settles, but once Isabella's dead, her daughters are in Hapsburg ands and Mary is off in France, there's really nothing left to fight over. Austria is all that's left, and the Bavarians are who I picture probably winning, although that might not be likely.
EDIT: As for who Margaret is holding it for, it's all kinda murky in my head. She knows one of her neices is Duchess now, she personally believes it should be Eleanor, but would accept Isabella if it comes to that. Legal debates keep everyone busy while Isabella's life in Denmark is collapsing, and eventually Eleanor takes control and gives it to France to settle the matter. No one is happy except Francois.
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If both Louis and Ferdinand are dead by 1526 then Hungarians most likely elect Sigismund of Poland as their king, Louis II would marry Anne elsewhere long before 1526 (and with Habsburgs gone French-Ottoman alliance is also butterflied away, Louis II is busy in Austria and HRE, claiming Maximilian's inheritance, and Mohacs may not happen) and Mary, Queen of Hungary is not going to remarry-she refused to remarry IOTL, and now, with her brothers dead, who's going to force her to marry again?
Derby was part of the Lancastrian inheritance of Blanche. However I don't see it being alienated from the main demense.
Richmond would work if the Bretons lose it as OTL. Prior to that he can go untitled (see Bedford, Gloucester and Cambridge).
Edit: Regarding the Hereford thingamajig, if Richard marries a Bohun it'll be Eleanor, and I sincerely doubt Gaunt will be able to screw him out of half his wife's lands. It's easier to antagonize the fifth son of a dead king than to antagonize the second son of a living one. Besides with a Bohun match Richard will probably be Duke of Hereford not York.
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I can not see Alix marrying George BUT she can marry Albert Victor as she was his first love, before Helene AND if she said yes to his proposal (instead of the OTL no) they both would be spared a lot of heartbreaks. George will end having his heart broken by Missy (thanks to their mother’s feud) and likely eventually find happiness with May (as OTL)
Habsburg England, Aviz Spain
Philip IV/II/I (1478-1531) Duke of Burgundy 1482, Holy Roman Emperor 1519, King of England iure uxoris 1527 m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1500) b) Anne of Lorraine (1490-1513) c) Margaret of England (1489-1541)
1a) Eleanor (1498-1558) Queen of Castile 1504, m. John III (1502-1557) King of Portugal and Aragon*
2a) Charles (1500-1502)
3b) Charles V (1507-1545) Duke of Burgundy, Holy Roman Emperor 1531, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1555)
4b) Mary (1508-1560) m. Louis II (1506-1540) King of Bohemia and Hungary
5b) Philippa (1510-1567) m. a) Henry IX (1511-1527) King of England** b) Alexander IV (1513-1570) King of Scotland***
6b) Isabella (1512)
7c) Maximilian (1518-1520)
8c) Henry X (1520-1578) King of England 1541, m. Margaret of France (1523-1574)
* With Aragonese semi-salic laws I guess he'd be grandfather successor in Aragon, just like IOTL Charles succeeded Ferdinand in Aragon immediately ater his death, while Juana la Loca officially was solo iure Queen of Castile untill her death.
** Son of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII (who died in jousting accident while celebrating his birth)
*** Son of Anne de la Tour and John Stewart, Duke of Albany, who ITTL is King of Scotland as John II (James V, like all his full siblings, died as infant)
Philip IV/II/I (1478-1531) Duke of Burgundy 1482, Holy Roman Emperor 1519, King of England iure uxoris 1527 m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1500) b) Anne of Lorraine (1490-1513) c) Margaret of England (1489-1541)
1a) Eleanor (1498-1558) Queen of Castile 1504, m. John III (1502-1557) King of Portugal and Aragon*
2a) Charles (1500-1502)
3b) Charles V (1507-1545) Duke of Burgundy, Holy Roman Emperor 1531, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1555)
4b) Mary (1508-1560) m. Louis II (1506-1540) King of Bohemia and Hungary
5b) Philippa (1510-1567) m. a) Henry IX (1511-1527) King of England** b) Alexander IV (1513-1570) King of Scotland***
6b) Isabella (1512)
7c) Maximilian (1518-1520)
8c) Henry X (1520-1578) King of England 1541, m. Margaret of France (1523-1574)
* With Aragonese semi-salic laws I guess he'd be grandfather successor in Aragon, just like IOTL Charles succeeded Ferdinand in Aragon immediately ater his death, while Juana la Loca officially was solo iure Queen of Castile untill her death.
** Son of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII (who died in jousting accident while celebrating his birth)
*** Son of Anne de la Tour and John Stewart, Duke of Albany, who ITTL is King of Scotland as John II (James V, like all his full siblings, died as infant)
Scenario: Eleanor of Austria's match with Charles III, Duke of Bourbon goes through.
Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498: d.1558) m. Manuel I, King of Portugal (b.1467: d.1521) (a), Charles III, Duke of Bourbon (b.1490: d.1527) (b), Francois I, King of France (b.1494: d.1547) (c)
Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498: d.1558) m. Manuel I, King of Portugal (b.1467: d.1521) (a), Charles III, Duke of Bourbon (b.1490: d.1527) (b), Francois I, King of France (b.1494: d.1547) (c)
1a) Charles, Infante of Portugal (b.1520: d.1521)
2a) Maria, Duchess of Viseu (b.1521: d.1577)
- never married, had no issue
3b) Charles of Bourbon (b.1524: d.1526)
4b) Gilbert I, Duke of Bourbon (b.1526: d.1586) m. Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre (b.1528: d.1572) (a), Diane de France, Duchess of Angouleme (b.1538: d.1619) (b)
1a) Marguerite de Bourbon (b.1548: d.1550)
2a) Henry III, King of Navarre (b.1550: d.1579) m. Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1553: d.1615) (a)
- had no issue
3a) Catherine, Princess of Navarre (b.1551: d.1555)
4a) Eleanor, Princess of Navarre (b.1554: d.1607) m. Henry I, Duke of Guise (b.1550: d.1588) (a)
1a) Isabelle de Guise (b.1571)
2a) Charles de Guise (b.1572: d.1575)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1573)
4a) Gilbert I, Duke of Guise (b.1575)
5a) Francois, Duke of Chevreuse (b.1577)
6a) Marie de Guise (b.1578: d.1578)
7a) Elisabeth de Guise (b.1579)
8a) Claude de Guise (b.1582: d.1582)
9a) Stillborn Son (c.1583)
10a) Marguerite de Guise (b.1585: d.1585)
5a) Louis, Prince of Navarre (b.1555: d.1555)
6a) Maximilian I, King of Navarre (b.1558: d.1584) m. Marguerite de Lorraine, Duchess of Alencon (b.1564: d.1625) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1579) - alleged
2a) Marie, Princess of Navarre (b.1582)
3a) Jeanne, Princess of Navarre (b.1582)
4a) Charles X, King of France (b.1584)
7a) Francis, Prince of Navarre (b.1560: d.1564)
Some Things That Happened: - Eleanor's marriage to Charles III, Duke of Bourbon occurs more quickly than OTL, with Charles having a moment of extreme optimism. Charles spends the last few years of his life at the Spanish court with his wife, and Eleanor's marriage to Francois I of France in 1531 is, in part, motivated by wanting to regain her surviving son's inheritance. She remains in France after her third husband's death, to ensure her beloved Gilbert is cared for.
- Gilbert's marriage to Jeanne of Navarre brings him further into the Valois scheming, although he attempts to remain neutral, regularly visiting Brussels and Madrid to see his Hapsburg cousins. He and his younger son do not attend his eldest son's wedding celebrations, claiming illness. Fearing further Valois meddling, he organises a wedding in 1578 to protect his younger son from their meddling, his son to the daughter of the Duke of Mercœur. When Catherine de Medici suggests the match might be annulled if it had not been consummated, so that the young Maximilian, now King of Navarre, could marry his former sister-in-law following Henry III of Navarre's death in 1579, Gilbert makes a largescale public announcement of a supposed pregnancy for his daughter-in-law, which is suspected to have been a lie. A supposed stillbirth occurs in later in the year, before she is seen at court, and it won't be until 1582 that the Queen of Navarre would have her next pregnancy, ending with twin daughters. A son in 1584 follows, before Gilbert is left the awful tragedy of burying his younger son after a hunting accident. His daughter Eleanor had married, in 1570, the current Duke of Guise, and acted as his representative in the French court.
- In 1584, when Catherine de Medici once again brought up the idea of marrying the Princess Marguerite to a Bourbon, this time Gilbert himself, he announced his intentions to the widow Diane de France, illegitimate daughter of Henry II of France. Their marriage was childless, but Diane would be a key figure in the lives of her step-grandchildren, particularly following her third husband's death in 1586.
- The death of Henry III of France in 1589, without any direct heirs of the Valois line, left the young Charles of Navarre as the next King of France. The Bourbons jumped into action immediately, with Eleanor, Dowager Duchess of Guise proclaiming her nephew as King and writing to her stepmother to bring the children to Paris immediately. She also worked to block Catherine de Valois from any form of the Regency and sent her guards to personally escort Louise of Lorraine, Queen Dowager of France, to her household for "care during her grief", which was really an attempt to prevent her and the Lorraine faction from taking over the Regency either. Diane of France was proclaimed Regent for her stepgrandson in late 1589, sidelining the boy's actual mother, who was ignored due to her youth. The Lorraine faction was mollified by several key places in the Regency, and Marguerite de Lorraine was granted the title of Duchess of Alencon until her death, so long as she remained unmarried. The Hapsburgs would recognise this new Dynasty quickly, and Philip II of Spain strongly considered marrying the widowed Duchess of Guise as his fifth wife.
François wouldn't particularly be interested in giving his stepson those lands back. He'd got the courts to name his mother as the heir and the lands passed back into the royal demesne. He did the same with the Alençon estates where the lion's share was apportioned to his sister (despite there being no children from her marriage and subsequent remarriage - both clauses in her marriage contract which stipulated she was to forfeit those lands/moneys) and the marquies of Montferrat and duchesse de Vendôme were bought off with something small.
That said, those lands were (as of 1527) in the hands of Louise de Savoie, and when she died, they passed to her grandson, François's youngest son, the duc d'Angoulême, then Orléans. And, when he died, they went back to the royal hands. So I'm not sure why François I or Henri II would be up for regurgitating those lands/incomes.
Who's Catherine de Valois? And why do the Lorraine faction need to be prevented from "taking over"? They'd already have an in-road via Marguerite whichever way the cat jumps (Henri III leaving an underage heir or Marguerite's son winding up as heir to France) . And I somewhat don't think that Diane would be seen as a "viable" candidate for a regency in any capacity. Especially given how Catherine de Medici purposefully sidelined anyone with any connections to Diane de Poitiers between Henri II's death and her own daeth, which means that Diane de Valois wouldn't really have much in the way of a powerbase to fall back on. As duchesse de Bourbon, it's equally questionable how much say she'd have since the Bourbons were "the only backwoods cousins who could simultaneously be elitist snobs".
Better Times for Scotland? No idea how plausible this is (although after Albany's wife died OTL there were rumours that he and Marge were going to get married)
Margaret Tudor (1489-1541) 1m: 1503 James IV, King of Scots (1473-1513); 2m: 1515 John Stewart, Duke of Albany[1] (b.1484)
[1] His wife died in childbirth with their daughter in 1513. Margaret and Albany "bond" over their shared grief at losing a spouse.
[2] IIRC there was a rumour that Albany poisoned him OTL, here, with mom and Albany married, things go a bit differently (Albany poisoning his stepson is a little too obvious). Suspect this would lead to all sorts of fun down the road.
[3] Godson of the King of France
@isabella @CaptainShadow @Jan Olbracht @Victoria @Carolus @VVD0D95 @FalconHonour @Awkwardvulture @HortenseMancini
Margaret Tudor (1489-1541) 1m: 1503 James IV, King of Scots (1473-1513); 2m: 1515 John Stewart, Duke of Albany[1] (b.1484)
[1m.] James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
[1m.] Unnamed Daughter (1508)
[1m.] Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509-1510)
[1m.] James V, King of Scots [from 1513] (b.1512)
[1m.] Unnamed Daughter (1512)
[1m.] Alisdair, Duke of Ross (b.1514[2])
[2m.] Margaret (b.1517) m: ?
[2m.] Elizabeth (b.1520) m: ?
[2m.] Francis[3], Earl of March (b.1522)
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1525)
[2m.] Madeleine (1527-1529)
[1] His wife died in childbirth with their daughter in 1513. Margaret and Albany "bond" over their shared grief at losing a spouse.
[2] IIRC there was a rumour that Albany poisoned him OTL, here, with mom and Albany married, things go a bit differently (Albany poisoning his stepson is a little too obvious). Suspect this would lead to all sorts of fun down the road.
[3] Godson of the King of France
@isabella @CaptainShadow @Jan Olbracht @Victoria @Carolus @VVD0D95 @FalconHonour @Awkwardvulture @HortenseMancini
Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany miscarries in late 1517 and dies.
Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1514) m. a) Charles VIII of France (1470-1498), b) Louis XII of France (1462-1515)
Francis I, King of France (1494-1547) m. a) Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1517), b) Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558)
Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1514) m. a) Charles VIII of France (1470-1498), b) Louis XII of France (1462-1515)
1a) Charles Orlando of France (1492-1495)
2a) Francis (1493)
3a) stillborn daughter (1495)
4a) Charles of France (1496)
5a) Francis of France (1497-1498)
6a) Anne of France (1498)
1b) Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1517) m. Francis I, King of France
1) Louise of France, Duchess of Brittany (1515-1518)
2) Charlotte of France, Duchess of Brittany (1516-1535)
3) miscarried son (1517)
2b) stillborn twins (1500)
3b) Francis of France (1503)
4b) miscarriages (1505-1509)
5b) Renée of France, Duchess of Brittany (1510-1575) b. Francis, Dauphin of France (1523-1525), m. Ercole II d’Este, Duke of Ferrara (1508-1559)
1) Anna d’Este (1530-1605)
2) Alfonso II d’Este, Duke of Ferrara (1533-1597)
3) Lucrezia d’Este (1536-1602)
4) Claudio d’Este, Duke of Brittany (1537-1584)
5) Luigi d’Este (1540-1589)
6b) A son (1512)
Francis I, King of France (1494-1547) m. a) Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany (1499-1517), b) Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558)
1a) Louise of France, Duchess of Brittany (1515-1518)
2a) Charlotte of France, Duchess of Brittany (1516-1535)
3a) miscarried son (1517)
4b) Louise of France (1520-1546)
5b) Françoise of France (1521-1534)
6b) Francis, Dauphin of France (1523-1525) b. Renée of France, Duchess of Brittany (1510-1575)
7b) Eleanor of France (1525)
8b) Francis II, King of France (1528-1587)
9b) Charles of France, Duke of Orléans (1528-1564)
10b) Margaret of France (1530-1564)
11b) Madeleine of France (1533-1592)
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Francis will get the duchy, but his dad's still alive (this tree would be around 1530 or so). Earl of March was the next highest of Albany's titles, so I assume it'd be used as a courtesy title for his son. Albany's dad was a "marquess" of somewhere, but I've never seen the marquessate mentioned as passing to John, so earl of March it is.
If I may, why does Eleonore seem to have such a "high" mortality rate among her kids? Claude and François had five kids that lived past age 10 (and they were more closely related than François and Eleonore). So wouldn't François and Eleonore have better luck (maybe more along the lines of Ferdinand I and Anna Jagiellonika) with kids than say, her sister Catalina and stepson, or Karl V-Isabel?
True, the 1525 deaths I imagine are from an epidemic (say measles). Margaret's death date is a typo, I planned a 1564 death for her, probably in childbirth, like Louise (though I didn't name their husbands as I'm unsure about the matches: James V of Scotland will marry Marie de Bourbon-Vendôme here, though Margaret could end up in Savoy like her OTL namesake). For Françoise, well it's just "bad luck" if I may say so.
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Probably better than she did as tsaritsa 😅
especially because a) grandmama queen will be around for the first seven years or so of the marriage to give alix pointers/guidance and b) she has an heir and a spare right off the bat (obviously ernest’s hemophilia will still be a worry but at least he has brothers unlike alexei).
Deleted member 147978
I already wanted to see Margeret and John get married to settle the regency dispute, but hey that's just me.