True, if Warwick and Edward never ‘break up’ then Isabel would be a good English proxy.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Yeah, I went for Henry Stafford. The Woodvilles might appear at Court as the Duchess of Clarence's cousins, and they might even snag a Baron/Earl or two in the marriage market, but they're not getting a Duke, which leaves Buckingham free for Isabel.
Barons are at their same social level (Richard Woodville was raised as Baron in 1448 and became a Knight of the Garter in 1450) and considering their mother’s bloodline Viscounts also are fair game for them. Marrying Earls would be a great match for them, but lower are exactly at their level (Elizabeth, Jacquetta and Anthony all married heirs or holders of baronies)
Scenario: Surviving Francis III, Duke of Brittany.
Francis I, King of France (b.1494: d.1547) m. Claude, Duchess of Brittany (b.1499: d.1524) (a), Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498: d.1558) (b)
Francis I, King of France (b.1494: d.1547) m. Claude, Duchess of Brittany (b.1499: d.1524) (a), Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (b.1498: d.1558) (b)
1a) Louise, Princess of France (b.1515: d.1517)
2a) Charlotte, Princess of France (b.1516: d.1524)
3a) Francis II, King of France (b.1518: d.1579) m. Isabella Jagiellon (b.1519: d.1557) (a), Léonore de Bourbon (b.1532: d.1611) (b)
1a) Charles IX, King of France (b.1543: d.1582) m. Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1596) (a)
1a) Francis III, King of France (b.1563)
2a) Isabella, Princess of France and Scotland (b.1566)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1567)
4a) James, Prince of France and Scotland (b.1570: d.1571)
5a) Charles I, King of Scotland (b.1573)
6a) Stillborn Son (c.1573)
7a) Marie, Princess of Scotland (b.1575: d.1583)
8a) Robert, Duke of Anjou and Ross (b.1578)
2a) Elisabeth, Princess of France (b.1544: d.1552)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1545)
4a) Anne, Princess of France (b.1547: d.1617) m. Philip II, King of Spain (b.1527: d.1598) (a)
1a) Isabella, Infanta of Spain (b.1565: d.1566)
2a) Stillborn Son (b.1566)
3a) Margaret, Infanta of Spain (b.1568)
4a) Philip, Infante of Spain (b.1571: d.1576)
5a) Ferdinand III, King of Spain (b.1575)
6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1577)
7a) Stillborn Son (c.1579)
8a) Juana, Infanta of Spain (b.1580: d.1592)
5a) Henri, Duke of Anjou (b.1548: d.1563)
- never married, had no issue
6a) Francis I, King of Poland and Duke of Angouleme (b.1550: d.1611) m. Maria Claudia, Princess of Poland (b.1553: d.1606) (a)
- had issue
7a) Charlotte, Princess of France (b.1553: d.1584) m. Henri III, King of Navarre (b.1553: d.1619) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1576)
2a) Antoine, Prince of Navarre (b.1579: d.1586)
3a) Henri IV, King of Navarre (b.1582)
8a) Stillborn Son (c.1554)
9a) Catherine, Princess of France (b.1556: d.1557)
10b) Jeanne, Princess of France (b.1560: d.1611) m. Philip III, Duke of Savoy (b.1557: d.1580) (a), François de Bourbon, Prince of Conti (b.1558: d.1614) (b)
1a) Charles Francis I, Duke of Savoy (b.1577)
2a) Stillborn Son (c.1580)
3b) Victoria de Bourbon (b.1584)
4b) Stillborn Son (c.1586)
5b) Jean de Bourbon, Prince of Conti (b.1589)
6b) Miscarriage (c.1590)
11b) Stillborn Son (c.1562)
12b) Louis, Duke of Brittany (b.1565: d.1621) m. Charlotte de La Marck, Duchess of Bouillon (b.1574: d.1599) (a), Marie de Bourbon, Duchess of Montpensier (b.1604) (b)
1a) Claude de Breton, Mademoiselle de Brittany (b.1594)
2a) Francis IV, Duke of Brittany (b.1597)
13b) Stillborn Son (c.1566)
14b) Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1568: d.1570)
4a) Henri, Duke of Orleans (b.1519: d.1575) m. Catherine de Medici (b.1519: d.1589) (a)
1a) Francis, Duke of Orleans (b.1544: d.1560)
- never married, had no issue
2a) Elisabeth d'Orleans (b.1545: d.1572) m. Francis I, Duke of Guise (b.1550: d.1598) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1561)
2a) Marie de Guise (b.1563)
3a) Miscarriage (c.1565)
4a) Isabelle de Guise (b.1566)
5a) Francis II, Duke of Guise (b.1567)
6a) Louis de Guise (b.1570: d.1570)
7a) Miscarriage (c.1571)
3a) Claude d'Orleans (b.1547: d.1575) m. Charles III, Duke of Lorraine (b.1543: d.1608) (a)
1a) Henri II, Duke of Lorraine (b.1563: d.1624)
2a) Christina of Lorraine (b.1565)
3a) Charles of Lorraine (b.1567)
4a) Antonia of Lorraine (b.1568)
5a) Anne of Lorraine (b.1569: d.1574)
6a) Francis of Lorraine (b.1572)
7a) Catherine of Lorraine (b.1573)
8a) Elisabeth of Lorraine (b.1574)
9a) Claude of Lorraine (b.1575: d.1576)
4a) Louis d'Orleans (b.1549: d.1550)
5a) Charles d'Orleans, Duke of Orleans (b.1550: d.1584) m. Catherine de Guise (b.1551: d.1596) (a)
1a) Catherine d'Orleans (b.1574)
2a) Henriette d'Orleans (b.1577: d.1581)
3a) Anne d'Orleans (b.1582)
6a) Henri d'Orleans, Duke of Berry (b.1551: d.1582)
- never married, had no issue
7a) Margaret d'Orleans (b.1553: d.1615) m. Karl Friedrich of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1555: d.1575) (a)
1a) William II, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1572)
2a) Isabella of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1574)
8a) Hercules d'Orleans, Archbishop of Paris (b.1555: d.1608)
- never married, had no issue
9a) Victoria d'Orleans (b.1556: d.1556) - twin
10a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1556) - twin
5a) Madeleine, Princess of France (b.1520: d.1537) m. James V, King of Scotland (b.1512: d.1542) (a)
- had no issue
6a) Charles, Duke of Angouleme (b.1522: d.1545)
- never married, had no issue
7a) Margaret, Princess of France (b.1523: d.1574) m. Sigismund II Augustus, King of Poland (b.1520: d.1572) (a)
1a) Maria Claudia, Princess of Poland (b.1553: d.1606) m. Ernest, Archduke of Austria (b.1553: d.1572) (a), Francis I, King of Poland and Duke of Angouleme (b.1550: d.1611) (b)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1572)
2b) Catherine, Princess of Poland (b.1575: d.1595)
- never married, had no issue
3b) Isabella, Princess of Poland (b.1579: d.1579)
4b) Sigismund, Prince of Poland (b.1580: d.1590)
5b) Maria, Princess of Poland (b.1583: d.1587)
6b) Stillborn Son (c.1585)
7b) Margaret, Princess of Poland (b.1589: d.1601)
8b) Anne, Princess of Poland (b.1592: d.1610) m. Władysław IV Vasa, King of Poland (b.1595: d.1648) (a)
- had no issue
9b) Stillborn Son (c.1594)
10b) Helena, Princess of Poland (b.1597: d.1630) m. Władysław IV Vasa, King of Poland (b.1595: d.1648) (a)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1613)
2a) Sigismund Vasa, Prince of Poland (b.1616)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1618)
4a) Ursula Vasa, Princess of Poland (b.1622: d.1627)
5a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1625)
6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1526)
7a) Barbara Vasa, Princess of Poland (b.1528: d.1540)
How have you get Władysław Vasa with such POD? He'd be butterflied away.
Margaret II of Hainault and Holland[1] b. 1436 m. Edward IV(a)
1a. Elizabeth of York b. 1460
2a. Jacqueline of York b. 1461
3a. Cecily of York b. 1463
4a. Edward V b. 1464
5a. Margaret of York b. 1466
6a. Richard of York b. 1467
7a. Anne of York b. 1470
8a. George Plantagenet b. 1472
9a. Catherine of York b. 1476
10a. Bridget of York b. 1478
1. the daughter of Jacqueline of Hainault and her last husband, Charles the Bold does not do anything about the marriage due to it being done be Henry VI and Louis XI.
1a. Elizabeth of York b. 1460
2a. Jacqueline of York b. 1461
3a. Cecily of York b. 1463
4a. Edward V b. 1464
5a. Margaret of York b. 1466
6a. Richard of York b. 1467
7a. Anne of York b. 1470
8a. George Plantagenet b. 1472
9a. Catherine of York b. 1476
10a. Bridget of York b. 1478
1. the daughter of Jacqueline of Hainault and her last husband, Charles the Bold does not do anything about the marriage due to it being done be Henry VI and Louis XI.
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I don’t think Francis III would give up his right as Mary’s heir to his brother. Charles could potential be regent on his brothers behalf.
Scenario: Surviving Elizabeth Tudor the Elder.
Henry VII, King of England (b.1457: d.1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b.1466: d.1503) (a)
Henry VII, King of England (b.1457: d.1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b.1466: d.1503) (a)
1a) Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1486: d.1502) m. Catherine, Infanta of Aragon and Castile (b.1486: d.1536) (a)
- had no issue
2a) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England (b.1489: d.1542) m. James IV, King of Scotland (b.1473: d.1513) (a), Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus (b.1489: d.1557) (b), Henry Stewart, Lord of Methven (b.1495: d.1552) (c)
1a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1507: d.1508)
2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1508)
3a) Arthur Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1509: d.1510)
4a) James V, King of Scotland (b.1512: d.1542) m. Marguerite d'Angouleme (b.1523: d.1572) (a)
1a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1540: d.1541)
2a) Francis I, King of Scotland (b.1541)
3a) James Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1542: d.1558)
5a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1512)
6a) Alexander, Duke of Ross (b.1514: d.1515)
7b) Margaret Douglas (b.1515) m. Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset (b.1517: d.1562) (a)
1a) Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset (b.1538)
2a) Stillborn Son (c.1540)
3a) Thomas Grey (b.1543: d.1545)
4a) Anne Grey (b.1545: d.1587) m. Thomas Tudor, Duke of York (b.1539: d.1575)
- had issue
5a) Stillborn Son (c.1546)
6a) Miscarriage (c.1547)
7a) Elizabeth Grey (b.1548: d.1549)
8a) Charles Grey (b.1551)
9a) Stillborn Son (c.1553)
10a) Mary Grey (b.1555: d.1555)
11a) John Grey (b.1557)
12a) Miscarriage (c.1559)
8c) Dorothea Stewart (c.1528)
3a) Henry VIII, King of England and Ireland (b.1491: d.1547) m. Catherine, Infanta of Aragon and Castile (b.1486: d.1536) (a) -annulled 1528-, Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1555) (b)
1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)
2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1511: d.1511)
3a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1513 d.1513)
4a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1515: d.1515)
5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516: d.1558)
- never married, had no issue
6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)
7b) Elizabeth Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1529: d.1557) m. Jean IV, King of Navarre (b.1529: d.1577) (a)
- had issue
8b) Stillborn Son (c.1530)
9b) Miscarriage (c.1531)
10b) Edward VI, King of England and Ireland (b.1533: d.1587) m. Dorothea, Princess of Denmark (b.1528: d.1575) (a)
1a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1551: d.1566)
2a) Arthur Tudor, Duke of Somerset (b.1554: d.1560)
3a) Frederick I, King of England and Ireland (b.1527)
4a) Stillborn Son (c.1530)
11b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)
12b) Miscarriage (c.1535)
13b) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1537: d.1544)
14b) Stillborn Daughter (c.1537)
15b) Thomas Tudor, Duke of York (b.1539: d.1575) m. Anne Grey (b.1545: d.1587) (a)
1a) Anne Tudor of York (b.1568)
2a) Margaret Tudor of York (b.1570)
3a) Edmund Tudor, Duke of York (b.1572)
4a) Thomas Tudor, Earl of Lincoln (b.1574)
16b) Miscarriage (c.1541)
4a) Elizabeth Tudor, Princess of England (b.1492: d.1557) m. Louis XII, King of France (b.1492: d.1516) (a), Henri II, King of Navarre (b.1502: d.1555) (b)
1a) Louis XIII, King of France (b.1515: d.1568) m. Maria, Infanta of Portugal (b.1521: d.1577) (a)
1a) Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1538)
2a) Henri, Dauphin of France (b.1540: d.1544)
3a) Francois, Dauphin of France (b.1541: d.1550)
4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1543)
5a) Anne, Princess of France (b.1546)
6a) Charles IX, King of France (b.1549)
7a) Stillborn Son (c.1550)
8a) Helene, Princess of France (b.1553)
9a) Louis, Duke of Anjou (b.1554)
2a) Henri, Duke of Orleans (b.1516: d.1552) m. Madeleine d'Angouleme (b.1520: d.1539) (a), Marie de Guise (b.1515: d.1560) (b)
1a) Isabelle d'Orleans (b.1538)
2b) Charles, Duke of Orleans (b.1541)
3b) Stillborn Son (c.1542)
4b) Antoinette d'Orleans (b.1544: d.1546)
5b) Marguerite d'Orleans (b.1545: d.1545)
6b) Jean d'Orleans (b.1547: d.1550)
3b) Elisabeth, Princess of Navarre (b.1523: d.1590) m. Francois III, Duke of Brittany (b.1519: d.1542) (a)
1a) Francois IV, Duke of Brittany (b.1543)
4b) Stillborn Son (c.1525)
5b) Miscarriage (c.1526)
6b) Jean IV, King of Navarre (b.1529: d.1577) m. Elizabeth Tudor, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1529: d.1557) (a), Eleonora d'Este (b.1537: d.1581) (b)
1a) Marie, Princess of Navarre (b.1550)
2a) Stillborn Son (c.1553)
3a) Elisabeth, Princess of Navarre (b.1554)
4a) Jean, Prince of Navarre (b.1557: d.1572)
5b) Henri, Prince of Navarre (b.1559: d.1562)
6b) Madeleine, Princess of Navarre (b.1561)
7b) Stillborn Son (c.1562)
8b) Francis II, King of Navarre (b.1566)
5a) Mary Tudor, Princess of England (b.1496: d.1532) m. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1500: d.1558) (a)
1a) Isabella, Archduchess of Austria (b.1518: d.1523)
2a) Philip II, King of Spain (b.1520: d.1587) m. Maria Manuela, Infanta of Portugal (b.1527: d.1544) (a), Anna, Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1528: d.1590)
1a) Stillborn Son (c.1544)
2b) Anne, Infanta of Spain (b.1547)
3b) Stillborn Daughter (c.1548)
4b) Philip III, King of Spain (b.1550)
5b) Eleanor, Infanta of Spain (b.1553)
6b) Ferdinand, Infante of Spain (b.1554: d.1555)
7b) Stillborn Son (c.1555)
8b) Charles, Infante of Spain (b.1557)
9b) Juana, Infanta of Spain (b.1559)
3a) Stillborn Son (c.1521)
4a) Juana, Archduchess of Austria (b.1522: d.1597) m. Francis I, Duke of Lorraine (b.1517: d.1545) (a)
- had no issue
5a) Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (b.1524: d.1561) m. Maximilian I, King of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1527: d.1576) (a)
1a) Ferdinand, Prince of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1547: d.1558)
2a) Isabella, Princess of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1550)
3a) Louis III, King of Hungary and Bohemia (b.1554)
4a) Stillborn Son (c.1555)
6a) Stillborn Son (c.1525)
7a) Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria (b.1528: d.1531)
6a) Edward Tudor, Prince of England (b.1498: d.1499)
7a) Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset (b.1499: d.1500)
8a) Katherine Tudor, Princess of England (b.1503: d.1503)
Mary of Burgundy 1457 d. 1482 m. Maximilian(a)
1a. Margaret b.1478 d. 1530
2a. Isabella b. 1480 d. 1530
3a. Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor b. 1481 d. 1540 m. Maria of Spain
1a. Margaret b.1478 d. 1530
2a. Isabella b. 1480 d. 1530
3a. Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor b. 1481 d. 1540 m. Maria of Spain
Raymond Berenguer II of Aragon b. 1198 m. Beatrice of Savoy
1a. Margaret I of Aragon, Barcelona and Provence b. 1221 m. Raymond of Toulouse
2a. Eleanor b. 1223 m. Henry III of England
2a. Sanchia b. 1225 m. Richard of Cornwall
3a. Beatrice b. 1229 m. Alfonso X of Castile
James the conqueror dies without an issue.
1a. Margaret I of Aragon, Barcelona and Provence b. 1221 m. Raymond of Toulouse
2a. Eleanor b. 1223 m. Henry III of England
2a. Sanchia b. 1225 m. Richard of Cornwall
3a. Beatrice b. 1229 m. Alfonso X of Castile
James the conqueror dies without an issue.
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Atlantic Empire
Isabella of Castile b. 1452 m. Nicholas I of Aragon and France[1] b. 1448
1a. Isabella of Aragon b. 1470 m. Alfonso II of Portugal(a) Manuel I of Portugal(b)
2a. Jean II of France and Spain b. 1478-1530 m. Anne of Brittany d. 1530
3a. Jeanne of Aragon m. Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor, Duke of Burgundy
4a. Marie b. 1482 m. James IV of Scotland
5a. Catherine b. 1485 m. Arthur, Prince of Wales(a) Henry VIII(b)
1.Isabella of Castile and Louis XI get both the Dukes of Orleans and Angouleme assassinated.
Isabella of Castile b. 1452 m. Nicholas I of Aragon and France[1] b. 1448
1a. Isabella of Aragon b. 1470 m. Alfonso II of Portugal(a) Manuel I of Portugal(b)
2a. Jean II of France and Spain b. 1478-1530 m. Anne of Brittany d. 1530
3a. Jeanne of Aragon m. Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor, Duke of Burgundy
4a. Marie b. 1482 m. James IV of Scotland
5a. Catherine b. 1485 m. Arthur, Prince of Wales(a) Henry VIII(b)
1.Isabella of Castile and Louis XI get both the Dukes of Orleans and Angouleme assassinated.
A few things...
I cannot see the Valois kings of France handing out Brittany as appanage so soon after they finally secured it.
Elisabeth and Claude's husbands should be switched imho so that the older sister is marrying the older husband and the younger sister, the younger husband.
So you have him as Duke of Orleans yet he dies in 1560 while Henri only dies in 1575. I would recommend calling him Duke of Valois, as the heir to the duchy of Orleans.
Maria was not used as a personal name in poland in this period, it was reserved exclusively for the virgin mary. She can be Anna Claudia or Isabella Claudia.
POD: David II of Scotland doesn't get captured at Neville's Cross
David II of Scotland (b.1324: d.1371) m Joan of England (b.1321: d.1362) m 2) Margaret Drummond (b.1336)
Issue:
1a) David III of Scotland (b.1347)
2b) Elizabeth of Scotland (b.1365)
2c) Margaret of Scotland (b.1367)
---------
David III of Scotland (b.1347: d. 1402) m Margaret of France (b.1347: d.1403)
Issue:
Robert II of Scotland (b.1366)
Prince David of Scotland (b.1367: d.1371)
Princess Joan of Scotland (b.1368)
Princess Margaret of Scotland (b.1370)
Prince Charles of Scotland (b.1373)
stillborn son (b.1376: d.1376)
miscarriage (1378)
Prince Louis of Scotland (b.1380)
----------------
Robert II of Scotland (b.1366: d.1424) m Bonne of Navarre (b.1364: d.1420)
Issue:
Prince Robert of Scotland (b.1384: d.1391)
Princess Joan of Scotland (b.1386)
David IV of Scotland (b.1387)
stillborn son (b.1390: d.1390)
Princess Margaret of Scotland (b.1392)
Princess Katherine of Scotland (b.1394)
Prince Charles of Scotland (b.1395)
Prince Alexander of Scotland (b.1398)
Prince Henry of Scotland (b.1402)
David II of Scotland (b.1324: d.1371) m Joan of England (b.1321: d.1362) m 2) Margaret Drummond (b.1336)
Issue:
1a) David III of Scotland (b.1347)
2b) Elizabeth of Scotland (b.1365)
2c) Margaret of Scotland (b.1367)
---------
David III of Scotland (b.1347: d. 1402) m Margaret of France (b.1347: d.1403)
Issue:
Robert II of Scotland (b.1366)
Prince David of Scotland (b.1367: d.1371)
Princess Joan of Scotland (b.1368)
Princess Margaret of Scotland (b.1370)
Prince Charles of Scotland (b.1373)
stillborn son (b.1376: d.1376)
miscarriage (1378)
Prince Louis of Scotland (b.1380)
----------------
Robert II of Scotland (b.1366: d.1424) m Bonne of Navarre (b.1364: d.1420)
Issue:
Prince Robert of Scotland (b.1384: d.1391)
Princess Joan of Scotland (b.1386)
David IV of Scotland (b.1387)
stillborn son (b.1390: d.1390)
Princess Margaret of Scotland (b.1392)
Princess Katherine of Scotland (b.1394)
Prince Charles of Scotland (b.1395)
Prince Alexander of Scotland (b.1398)
Prince Henry of Scotland (b.1402)
Edmund, Earl of Rutland survives and marries Marie of Foix as a French proxy, meaning Warwick is somewhat sated etc.
Edmund, Duke of Clarence (b. 1443) m. Marie of Foix (b. 1443)
A) Richard, Earl of Rutland (b. 1462) m. Margaret of Scotland (b. 1458)
B) Cecily of Clarence (b. 1464) m. Henry, Duke of Buckingham (b.1455)
C) Edward, Earl of Kendal (b. 1465) m. Cecily Bonville, Baroness Harington and Bonville (b. 1460)
D) Mary of Clarence (b. 1467) m. George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1465)
E) Anne of Clarence (b. 1469) m. George, Earl of Shrewsbury (b. 1468)
F) Edmund, Earl of Pembroke (b. 1472) m. Elizabeth, Baroness Herbert (b. 1477)
Edmund, Duke of Clarence (b. 1443) m. Marie of Foix (b. 1443)
A) Richard, Earl of Rutland (b. 1462) m. Margaret of Scotland (b. 1458)
B) Cecily of Clarence (b. 1464) m. Henry, Duke of Buckingham (b.1455)
C) Edward, Earl of Kendal (b. 1465) m. Cecily Bonville, Baroness Harington and Bonville (b. 1460)
D) Mary of Clarence (b. 1467) m. George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1465)
E) Anne of Clarence (b. 1469) m. George, Earl of Shrewsbury (b. 1468)
F) Edmund, Earl of Pembroke (b. 1472) m. Elizabeth, Baroness Herbert (b. 1477)
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Interesting...so would i be right in assuming that there is no readeption ittl? What becomes of henry vi and his family then?
Well, it's likely delayed (I really can't see Westminster just....sitting in France), but the Lancastrians are gonna need to be supremely lucky if they get the throne back ttl. So you're probably right on a hard AH basis, but tbh hadn't thought that far.
If Westminster/a son survive I could see them getting willed Provence by grandpa Rene, or maybe a Red Princess route with Westminster leaving a daughter who marries E5. Or just extinction like OTL. I'm leaning towards him having a daughter.
A Surviving Thomas Howard, son of Thomas Howard and Anne of York, who marries Mary of England
Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk (1496-1554) M. Princess Mary of England (1496-1539), had issue
1. Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, later King Thomas I of England [1], (1516-1569)) M. Queen Mary I of England (1516-1558), had issue
1 (A). King Thomas II of England (1554-1619) M. Elisabeth of Austria [2] (1554-1617)
1 (B). Prince Henry of England, Duke of York (1556-1617) M. Mary de Vere (1557-1610) [3]
2. Lady Frances Howard (1518-1562) M. Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset (1517-1554), had issue
2 (A). Lady Mary Grey (1537-1589) M. Henry Percy (1532-1585)
2 (B). Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset (1539-1590) M. Jane Lumey, Countess of Arundel (1537-1596)
2 (C). Lady Frances Grey (1542-1610), became a Nun
3. Henry Howard, Earl of Carlisle (1520-1577) M. Gertrude Manners (1525-1577), had issue
3 (A). Thomas Howard, Earl of Carlisle (1540-1623) M. Lettice Knollys (1543-1634)
4. Lady Mary Howard (1522-1545), became a Nun
[1] Thomas remains Catholic in secret alongside much of his family. Upon the death of King Edward VI, Thomas marries and revolts in Mary's name.
[2] Married in order to restore English relations with the Habsburgs.
[3] An OTL daughter of the Earl of Oxford. I couldn't find a concrete birthdate so I went with that one.
Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk (1496-1554) M. Princess Mary of England (1496-1539), had issue
1. Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, later King Thomas I of England [1], (1516-1569)) M. Queen Mary I of England (1516-1558), had issue
1 (A). King Thomas II of England (1554-1619) M. Elisabeth of Austria [2] (1554-1617)
1 (B). Prince Henry of England, Duke of York (1556-1617) M. Mary de Vere (1557-1610) [3]
2. Lady Frances Howard (1518-1562) M. Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset (1517-1554), had issue
2 (A). Lady Mary Grey (1537-1589) M. Henry Percy (1532-1585)
2 (B). Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset (1539-1590) M. Jane Lumey, Countess of Arundel (1537-1596)
2 (C). Lady Frances Grey (1542-1610), became a Nun
3. Henry Howard, Earl of Carlisle (1520-1577) M. Gertrude Manners (1525-1577), had issue
3 (A). Thomas Howard, Earl of Carlisle (1540-1623) M. Lettice Knollys (1543-1634)
4. Lady Mary Howard (1522-1545), became a Nun
[1] Thomas remains Catholic in secret alongside much of his family. Upon the death of King Edward VI, Thomas marries and revolts in Mary's name.
[2] Married in order to restore English relations with the Habsburgs.
[3] An OTL daughter of the Earl of Oxford. I couldn't find a concrete birthdate so I went with that one.
Ok...so Mary Tudor the elder basically marries Thomas instead of Brandon?
Yeah, more or less. They probably need to get a dispensation too.