Yeah, I can’t see John and Elizabeth holding onto Brittany for too long...but you never know, France was in a bad way during the minority of Charles VIII.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage
- Thread starter Jonathan
- Start date
Yeah but Anne de Beaujeu is not gonna let this shit fly. And mayhaps even some french nobles who disliked her would be pissed if England got bossy.
Other than the fact that Edmund and Margaret would have to marry in 1457 - boys weren't allowed to marry before 14 - I very much like this!
Treaty of Arras WI: *Anne of Brittany* is born as boy, while last child of Louis XI is born as girl, thus in alternate Treaty of Arras double match is decided (Philip Habsburg + *Louise* of France, Charles VIII + Margaret Habsburg)
Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) m. Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor
1) Philip IV (1478-1506) Duke of Burgundy, m. Louise of France (1472-1529)
2) Margaret (1480-1530) m. Charles VIII (1470-1505) King of France
3) Francis (1481)
* Children of Manuel of Portugal and Joanna of Castile
** Son of Vladislaus II of Bohemia and Hungary and Elizabeth of Palatinate
*** Son of Henry VIII, who ITTL married Catherine of Aragon earlier than IOTL.
Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) m. Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor
1) Philip IV (1478-1506) Duke of Burgundy, m. Louise of France (1472-1529)
1) Charles V (1496-1560) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. a) Mary of England (1496-1533) b) Catherine of Spain (1520-1576)*
2) Eleanor (1498-1515)
3) Charlotte (1499-1536) m. Christian II (1481-1559) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden
4) Anne (1501-1573) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland
5) Margaret (1503-1557) m. Stephen VI (1503-1542) King of Bohemia and Hungary**
6) Maximilian (1504-1515)
7) Philippa (1506-1563) m. Henry IX (1508-1553) King of England***
2) Margaret (1480-1530) m. Charles VIII (1470-1505) King of France
1) Charles (1497-1498)
2) Margaret (1499-1554) m. Ferdinand VI (1501-1549) King of Spain*
3) Charles (1500-1505)
4) Louis (1502-1504)
5) Philip VII (1503-1561) King of France 1505, m. a) Isabella of Spain* (1503-1535) b) Anne of Lorraine (1522-1568)
6) Charlotte (1505-1510)
3) Francis (1481)
* Children of Manuel of Portugal and Joanna of Castile
** Son of Vladislaus II of Bohemia and Hungary and Elizabeth of Palatinate
*** Son of Henry VIII, who ITTL married Catherine of Aragon earlier than IOTL.
VVD0D95
Banned
Oh I didn’t know about the fourteen year thing, but now I do that majes
Planning this a lot easier, thanks
I mean...technically they can be married earlier than fourteen but then you run the risk of the marriage being annulled later if it becomes disadvantageous for either party.Oh I didn’t know about the fourteen year thing, but now I do that majes
Planning this a lot easier, thanks
VVD0D95
Banned
This is very true, now just need to work our what would prompt the marriage to begin with
Anne of Burgundy and John of Lancaster have two children
-Joan of Lancaster b. 1425
-Elizabeth of Lancaster(the Posthumous) b. 1436
Maria of Castile m. Alfonso V of Aragon have two children
-Ferdinand II of Aragon b. 1420 m. Joan of Lancaster
--Alfonso VI of Aragon m. Isabella I of Castile
---Anna of Aragon b. 1468
-Isabel of Aragon b. 1422 m. Louis XI of France
Edward IV m. Elizabeth of Lancaster
--Edward V m. Anna of Aragon
-Joan of Lancaster b. 1425
-Elizabeth of Lancaster(the Posthumous) b. 1436
Maria of Castile m. Alfonso V of Aragon have two children
-Ferdinand II of Aragon b. 1420 m. Joan of Lancaster
--Alfonso VI of Aragon m. Isabella I of Castile
---Anna of Aragon b. 1468
-Isabel of Aragon b. 1422 m. Louis XI of France
Edward IV m. Elizabeth of Lancaster
--Edward V m. Anna of Aragon
Family of João II:
John II (1455-1495) King of Portugal, m. Eleanor of Viseu (1458-1525)
1) Afonso VI (1475-1524) King of Portugal 1495, m. Isabella of Castile (1470-1530)
3) John (1478-1494)
4) Edward (1480-1501) Duke of Coimbra
5) Joanna (1483-1518) a nun
6) Peter (1485)
7) Beatrice (1486-1542) m. Philibert II (1480-1515) Duke of Savoy
8) Eleanor (1488)
9) Peter (1491-1550) Duke of Guarda, m. Guiomar Coutinho
10) Henry (1493-1556) cardinal
John II (1455-1495) King of Portugal, m. Eleanor of Viseu (1458-1525)
1) Afonso VI (1475-1524) King of Portugal 1495, m. Isabella of Castile (1470-1530)
1) John III (1493-1552) King of Portugal
2) Eleanor (1495-1571)
3) Isabella (1496-1542)
4) Afonso (1498)
5) Joanna (1500-1501)
6) Ferdinand (1503-1568) Duke of Coimbra
7) Afonso (1505-1508)
8) Beatrice (1507-1564)
2) Isabella (1477-1528) m. a) John, Prince of Asturias (1478-1497) b) Henry VII (1457-1509) King of England1a) Ferdinand VI/III (1497-1551) King of Castile 1504, King of Aragon 1516
2b) Edmund (1507-1562) Duke of Somerset
3) John (1478-1494)
4) Edward (1480-1501) Duke of Coimbra
5) Joanna (1483-1518) a nun
6) Peter (1485)
7) Beatrice (1486-1542) m. Philibert II (1480-1515) Duke of Savoy
1) Philip (1503-1508)
2) Philibert III (1506-1559) Duke of Savoy
3) Margaret (1508)
8) Eleanor (1488)
9) Peter (1491-1550) Duke of Guarda, m. Guiomar Coutinho
1) John (1530-1587) Duke of Guarda
2) Afonso (1532)
3) Eleanor (1535-1597)
10) Henry (1493-1556) cardinal
I wonder what to do with Margaret of Austria ITTL. If nothing changes in France then I see her as Queen of Hungary. Meanwhile CoA in England would not wait for remarriage that long as Philip Habsburg is never going to get Castilian throne, so she has chance for better life.
Przemysł II reunites Poland. PODs:
-only child of Przemysł (OTL Elżbieta Ryksa) is born as boy
-Wenceslaus II of Bohemia fell from horse in autumn 1295, Przemysł, already crowned as King of Poland few months earlier, uses opportunity to claim Lesser Poland (thus he is outside reach of Brandenburgians, who IOTL were responsible for his murder-they'll not catch him in Cracow).
Przemysł II (1257-1308) Duke of Poznań 1257, Duke of whole Greater Poland 1279, Duke of Pomerelia 1294, King of Poland 1295, m. a) Ludgarda of Mecklenburg (1260-1283) b) Richeza of Sweden (ca. 1270-1292) c) Margaret of Brandenburg (1270-1315)
1b) Przemysł III (1288-1334) King of Poland 1308, m. Elizabeth of Pomerania (1291-1349)
-only child of Przemysł (OTL Elżbieta Ryksa) is born as boy
-Wenceslaus II of Bohemia fell from horse in autumn 1295, Przemysł, already crowned as King of Poland few months earlier, uses opportunity to claim Lesser Poland (thus he is outside reach of Brandenburgians, who IOTL were responsible for his murder-they'll not catch him in Cracow).
Przemysł II (1257-1308) Duke of Poznań 1257, Duke of whole Greater Poland 1279, Duke of Pomerelia 1294, King of Poland 1295, m. a) Ludgarda of Mecklenburg (1260-1283) b) Richeza of Sweden (ca. 1270-1292) c) Margaret of Brandenburg (1270-1315)
1b) Przemysł III (1288-1334) King of Poland 1308, m. Elizabeth of Pomerania (1291-1349)
1) Przemysł IV (1310-1366) King of Poland 1334, m. Euphemia of Wrocław (1312-1384)
2) Richeza (1312-1365) m. Charles I Robert (1288-1342) King of Hungary
3) Elizabeth (1313-1351) m. Rudolf I (1284-1356) Duke of Saxe-Wittenberg
4) Bolesław (1315-1318)
5) Władysław (1319)
TL idea: Anne of Brittany lives longer and Mary Tudor marries Charles V + Catherine of Aragon dies in 1518 and Henry VIII marries Isabella of Portugal.
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500—1558) m. Mary of England (1496—1533) in 1514.
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500—1558) m. Mary of England (1496—1533) in 1514.
1) Felipe, King of Spain (1518—1571) m. Mary of England (1516—1560).
2) María, Queen of France (1519—1569) m. François II, King of France (1518—1562)
3) Isabel, Queen of England (1521—1556) m. Arthur I, King of England (1523—1570).
4) Juana, Infanta of Spain (1522—1525).
5) Carlos, Duke of Burgundy (1523—1578) m. Marguerite of France (1523—1574).
6) Enrique, Infante of Spain (1525—1526).
7) Catalina, Duchess of Savoy (1528—1565) m. Emanuele Filiberto, Duke of Savoy (1528—1580.
8) Margarita, Infanta of Spain (1529—1530)
Henry VIII, King of England (1491—1547) m. Isabel of Portugal (1503—1555) in 1521.
1) Edward, Prince of England (1522—1523).
2) Arthur, King of England (1523—1570), m. Isabel of Spain (1521—1556).
3) Catherine, Holy Roman Empress (1525—1578), m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527—1576).
4) Henry, Prince of England (1526—1526).
5) Elizabeth, Queen of Poland (1527—1572) m. Sigismund II, King of Poland (1518—1572).
6) John, King of Portugal (1529—1579) m. Maria I, Queen of Portugal (1527—1569).
7) Edmund, Prince of England (1533—1534)
I think, if Catherine died in 1518, Henry would be more likely to marry Beatrice of Portugal than her older sister. Isabella considered herself destined to marry Charles V and if he isn't available then she will enter a convent rather than marry elsewhere. Also, why didn't Felipe of Spain marry Maria of Portugal? If she's her father's heiress, then that makes more sense than a Tudor match for both.
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Charles V married Mary Tudor in 1514, and yes Isabel was meant to enter a convent but Catherine's death made her match to Henry possible. As to Maria Manuela her frail health combined with the sucessive deaths of her brothers delay any possible marriage as any possible husband of hers would have a strong claim to the throne. She was married to her uncle, Luis of Beja who died in 1555. Upon her ascension in 1557, she married her cousin John.
First child of Leszek the White is a boy (named Bolesław), thus if his murder in 1227 is not butterflied away he'd have adult (by standard of the time) heir.
Thus 1217 treaty of mutual succession treaty between Leszek and Władysław Spindleshanks would be a bit different (more one sided) but would still happen-Spindleshanks was childless anyway and would happily disinherit his nephew Władysław Odonic, whom he despised). Also, if Spindleshanks does not get throne in Cracow, he could concentrate more on his native Greater Poland and could get rid off Odonic, perhaps for good. Thus after Spindleshanks dies, Greater Poland would go to Leszek's son. Unfortunately for ATL older Bolesław V he'd be main goal of 1241 Mongol invasion-he'd end killed in battle, later he'd be canonized as Christian martyr killed by pagan barbarians.
Leszek the White (1184/86-1227) Duke of Cracow, m. Grzymisława of Lutsk (d. 1258)
1) Bolesław V (1211-1241) Duke of Cracow 1227, Duke of Greater Poland 1231, m. Yolanda of Hungary (1215-1251)
2) Leszek II (1226-1279) Duke of Cracow, Duke of Greater Poland 1241, m. Kunigunde of Hungary (1234-1292)
Thus 1217 treaty of mutual succession treaty between Leszek and Władysław Spindleshanks would be a bit different (more one sided) but would still happen-Spindleshanks was childless anyway and would happily disinherit his nephew Władysław Odonic, whom he despised). Also, if Spindleshanks does not get throne in Cracow, he could concentrate more on his native Greater Poland and could get rid off Odonic, perhaps for good. Thus after Spindleshanks dies, Greater Poland would go to Leszek's son. Unfortunately for ATL older Bolesław V he'd be main goal of 1241 Mongol invasion-he'd end killed in battle, later he'd be canonized as Christian martyr killed by pagan barbarians.
Leszek the White (1184/86-1227) Duke of Cracow, m. Grzymisława of Lutsk (d. 1258)
1) Bolesław V (1211-1241) Duke of Cracow 1227, Duke of Greater Poland 1231, m. Yolanda of Hungary (1215-1251)
1) Helena (1239-1299) m. Leszek (1240-1288) Duke of Cuiavia*
2) Yolanda (1241-1263) m. Premysl Otakar II (1233-1278) King of Bohemia
2) Leszek II (1226-1279) Duke of Cracow, Duke of Greater Poland 1241, m. Kunigunde of Hungary (1234-1292)
1) Maria (1252-1257)
2) Helena (1254-1309) m. Konrad II (1250-1294) Duke of Czersk
3) Bolesław VI (1256-1286) Duke of Cracow 1279, m. Hedwig of Wrocław (1256-1300)
5) Leszek III (1260-1312) Duke of Greater Poland 1279, Duke of Cracow 1286, King of Poland 1290, m. Margaret of Brandenburg (1270-1315)
6) Kazimierz (1262)
7) Yolanda (1265- 1285)
* OTL Leszek the Black, who has no occassion to get Cracow ITTL with surviving Piast line of Lesser Poland.Henry IV has a son with Joan of Navarre (Edmund, b. 1406). Edmund's son is later regent during madness of Henry VI and happens to have strong family connections to Neville family (OTL Kingmaker is his brother-in-law and uncle by marriage). Meanwhile Edmund's daughter is married to Scottish King as English proxy.
Edmund (1406-1451) Duke of Kent, m. Eleanor Beauchamp (1408-1467)
1) Henry (1428-1465) Duke of Kent, m. Alice Neville (1430-1503)
2) Edmund (1430)
3) Joan (1432-1486) m. James II (1430-1460) King of Scotland
4) Eleanor (1435-1437)
* Son of Charles VIII and Eleanor of Scotland
Edmund (1406-1451) Duke of Kent, m. Eleanor Beauchamp (1408-1467)
1) Henry (1428-1465) Duke of Kent, m. Alice Neville (1430-1503)
1) Eleanor (1451-1513) m. John de la Pole (1442-1492) Duke of Suffolk, has issue
2) Edmund (1453-1458)
3) Henry (1456-1466)
4) Joan (1458)
5) Edmund (1460)
6) John II (1463-1513) King of England 1489, m. Margaret of Lancaster (see below) (1472-1513)
1) Margaret (1491-1549) m. James IV (1479-1518) King of Scotland (see below)
2) Edward (1493-1498)
3) Henry (1495-1497)
4) John III (1496-1571) King of England 1513, m. Beatrice of Portugal (1504-)
5) Alice (1499-1537) m. Charles IX (1497-1550) King of France*
6) Edward (1502-1543) Duke of Clarence
2) Edmund (1430)
3) Joan (1432-1486) m. James II (1430-1460) King of Scotland
1) James III (1451-1491) King of Scotland 1460, m. Margaret of Denmark (1456-1486)
1) Eleanor (1473-1530) m. Charles VIII (1470-1510) King of France
2) Joan (1475-1527)
3) James IV (1479-1518) King of Scotland 1491, m. Margaret of England (1491-1549)
4) Mary (1481)
5) David III (1483-1532) King of Scotland 1518, m. Elizabeth Douglas
2) Joan (1452-1456)
3) Eleanor (1454-1522) m. Edward IV (1453-1488) King of England
1) Margaret (1472-1513) m. John of Kent/John II of England (1463-1513)
4) Alexander (1457-1459)
5) David (1459-1479)
4) Eleanor (1435-1437)
* Son of Charles VIII and Eleanor of Scotland
@Jan Olbracht: no idea why, but I'd love to see a tree where Margaret of York marries Pedro of Coimbra and has kids (the match was pushed by Charles the Bold's mom OTL). Not sure what butterflies would look like or what kind of POD would be required.
Alternately Isabel of Scots as second wife for Carlos IV of Navarre could be equally fun
Alternately Isabel of Scots as second wife for Carlos IV of Navarre could be equally fun
A fun but meaningless TL...Elizabeth II's male-line descendants swap genders. Also, a tiny bit of future history.
Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary; b. 1926) m. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (born Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark in 1921) in 1947, had issue
Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary; b. 1926) m. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (born Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark in 1921) in 1947, had issue
1) Charles, Prince of Wales (Charles Philip Arthur George; b. 1948) m. Lady Diana Spencer (Diana Frances; b. 1961, d. 1997) in 1981, div. 1996, has issue (a); Camilla Parker Bowles (Camilla Rosemary; b. 1947) in 2005, has no issue (b)
1a) Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Buckingham (Elizabeth Alexandra Louisa Anne; b. 1983) m. Thomas Benke, 1st Duke of Buckingham (Thomas Paul; b. 1972) in 2013, has issue
1) Princess Victoria (Victoria Charlotte Diana; b. 2015)
2) Prince Arthur (Arthur Philip George; b. 2017)
3) Princess Alice (Alice Louise Elizabeth; b. 2020)
2a) Princess Patricia, Countess of Richmond (Patricia Victoria Caroline Beatrice; b. 1985) m. Jordan Pruitt, earl of Richmond (Jordan Nicholas; b. 1988) in 2020, has issue
1) Mistress Daisy Pruitt (Daisy Nicole; b. 2021)
2) Master Bertie Pruitt (Albert Francis; b. 2023)
2) Anne, Princess Royal (Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise; b. 1950) m. Captain Mark Philips (Mark Anthony Philip; b. 1948) in 1973, div. 1992, has issue (a); Sir Timothy Laurence (Timothy James Hamilton; b. 1955) in 1992, has no issue (b)
Issue as IOTL
3) Prince Andrew, Duke of York (Andrew Albert Edward Christian; b. 1960) m. Sarah Ferguson (b. 1959) in 1986, div. 1996, has issue
1) Prince Edmund, earl of Inverness (Edmund Philip Henry; b. 1987)
2) Prince Louis of York (Louis Albert David; b. 1989) m. Fiona Sutton (Fiona Clare; b. 1988) in 2020, has no issu
4) Prince Edward, earl of Wessex (Edward Antony Richard Louis; b. 1964) m. Sophie Rhys-Jones (Sophie Helen; b. 1965) in 1999, has issue
1) Stephen, Viscount Severn (Stephen George Alexander Philip; b. 2003)
2) Lady Maud Mountbatten-Windsor (Maud Elizabeth Alice May; b. 2007)
Á noter:- Thomas Benke is the first American to marry into the British royal family in good standing, the first Catholic to marry a British monarch or heir presumptive or apparent in over 300 years, the first ever person of confirmed Jewish ancestry to marry into the British royal family, and the first person with an acknowledged child born out of wedlock to marry into the British royal family.
- The children of Princess Elizabeth and the earl of Pembroke are styled as the children of an earl until such time as Princess Elizabeth becomes heir apparent. At that point, they will be styled ‘HRH Prince/Princess X of Wales’ like their mother and aunt before them.
- Princess Patricia, meanwhile, will remain HRH The Princess Patricia, Countess of Richmond.
- Prince Edmund's title comes one of his father's subsidiary titles. Prince Louis obviously did not receive one.
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Ok...I just remembered, in regards to Maria Manuela, that John is the son of a Portuguese infanta. So that's fine. But I think you misunderstand, Isabel's match with Henry simply isn't possible. Isabel's only two options were to marry Charles V or enter a convent and since Charles isn't available when she is of marriageable age then she'll be going to a convent ITTL. If Henry wants a Portuguese infanta for his second wife, then he will have to marry Beatrice.