List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

I will also note that Anne and Eleanor de Mortimer were described as ‘destitute’ following their mother’s death which doesn’t exactly scream great heiress…
Afaik that was because their brothers had rebelled against Henry IV. Thus much of their wealth was under his control. When Henry V came to power, the control of their estates came back to the Mortimers
 
My favorite ASB scenario: [ @isabella @HortenseMancini ]

Henry VIII, King of England (1491-1547) m. a) Katherine of Aragon (1485-1536), b) Maria of Portugal (1521-1577)
1a) Henry, Prince of Wales (1511-1541) m. Charlotte, Princess of France (1516-1544)​
- no surviving issue -​
2a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558) m. Francis II, King of France (1518-1560)​
1) Francis III, King of France (1536-1591)​
2) Elizabeth, Princess of France (1538-1598)​
3) Marie, Princess of France (1542-1605)​
4) Katherine, Princess of France (1544-1596)​
5) Henry IX, King of England (1546-1608)​
3b) Eleanor, Princess of England (1537-1599) m. Philip II, King of Spain (1527-1598)​
4b) Edward, Prince of Wales (1538-1546)​
5b) Cecily, Princess of England (1540-1600) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527-1596) [1]​
7b) Edmund I, King of England (1541-1551)​
[1] Maria of Austria died giving birth to Elisabeth, OTL Queen of France
 
My favorite ASB scenario: [ @isabella @HortenseMancini ]

Henry VIII, King of England (1491-1547) m. a) Katherine of Aragon (1485-1536), b) Maria of Portugal (1521-1577)
1a) Henry, Prince of Wales (1511-1541) m. Charlotte, Princess of France (1516-1544)​
- no surviving issue -​
2a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558) m. Francis II, King of France (1518-1560)​
1) Francis III, King of France (1536-1591)​
2) Elizabeth, Princess of France (1538-1598)​
3) Marie, Princess of France (1542-1605)​
4) Katherine, Princess of France (1544-1596)​
5) Henry IX, King of England (1546-1608)​
3b) Eleanor, Princess of England (1537-1599) m. Philip II, King of Spain (1527-1598)​
4b) Edward, Prince of Wales (1538-1546)​
5b) Cecily, Princess of England (1540-1600) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527-1596) [1]​
7b) Edmund I, King of England (1541-1551)​
[1] Maria of Austria died giving birth to Elisabeth, OTL Queen of France
I have a feeling the english may invite philip ii and eleanor to rule instead, if only because the habsburgs are at least not the hated french (and philip can be expected to be hands off and already has a son to be heir to spain, assuming things go as iotl with him and maria manuela)
 
My favorite ASB scenario: [ @isabella @HortenseMancini ]

Henry VIII, King of England (1491-1547) m. a) Katherine of Aragon (1485-1536), b) Maria of Portugal (1521-1577)
1a) Henry, Prince of Wales (1511-1541) m. Charlotte, Princess of France (1516-1544)​
- no surviving issue -​
2a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558) m. Francis II, King of France (1518-1560)​
1) Francis III, King of France (1536-1591)​
2) Elizabeth, Princess of France (1538-1598)​
3) Marie, Princess of France (1542-1605)​
4) Katherine, Princess of France (1544-1596)​
5) Henry IX, King of England (1546-1608)​
3b) Eleanor, Princess of England (1537-1599) m. Philip II, King of Spain (1527-1598)​
4b) Edward, Prince of Wales (1538-1546)​
5b) Cecily, Princess of England (1540-1600) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527-1596) [1]​
7b) Edmund I, King of England (1541-1551)​
[1] Maria of Austria died giving birth to Elisabeth, OTL Queen of France

I'm kind of wondering why Henry VIII married both of his and Katherine's kids into France. Mary certainly, but why Henry the younger too?
 
Not as if there are a whole host of options for Henry Jr though, is there?
There's always Catherine of Austria.
I have to agree that henry jr and catherine of austria seems the most likely match, especially because catherine of aragon will likely not want both of her children to marry in france and will no doubt be able to easily convince her husband to go with catherine (with no spare, an older bride is preferable to one six years younger)
 
Last edited:
There's always Catherine of Austria.
I have to agree that henry jr and catherine of austria seems the most likely match, especially because catherine of aragon will likely not want both of her children to marry in france and will no doubt be able to easily convince her husband to go with catherine (with no spare, an older bride is preferable to one six years younger)
Fair enough, I thought Catherine is needed in Portugal though, hence Charlotte
 
WI: A son for Kitty Howard

Henry VIII Tudor, King of England, France, and Ireland (b. 1491, d. 1547) m. Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485, d. 1536) in 1509, had issue (a); Anne Boleyn (b. 1501, d. 1536) in 1533, had issue (b); Jane Seymour (b. 1508, d. 1537) in 1536, had issue (c); Anne of Cleves (b. 1515, d. 1557) in 1540, ann. 1540, had no issue (d); Catherine Howard (b. 1523, d. 1578) in 1540, had issue (e); also had illegitimate issue by Elizabeth Blount (b. c. 1498-1502, d. c. 1540) (g)
1a) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1510)​
2a) Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b. and d. 1511)​
3a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1513)​
4a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1514)​
5a) Mary (b. 1516, d. 1560)​
6a) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1518)​
7g) Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b. 1519, d. 1536) m. Mary Howard (b. 1519, d. 1557) in 1533, had no issue​
8b) Elizabeth (b. 1533, d. 1603) m. James VI, King of Scots (b. 1540, d. ?) in 1556, had issue​
1) Anne (b. 1557, d. ?) m. Frederick II, King of Denmark and Norway (b. 1534, d. ?)​
2) James VII, King of Scots (b. 1559, d. ?) m. Katherine Tudor (b. 1560, d. ?)​
3) Mary (b. 1561, d. ?) m.​
4) Edmund, Duke of Albany (b. 1563, d. 1565)​
9c) Edward VI, King of England, France, and Ireland (b. 1537, d. 1553)​
10e) Edmund I, King of England, France, and Ireland (b. 1541, d. ?) m. Lettice Knollys (b. 1543, d. ?) [1] in 1560, had issue​
1) Katherine (b. 1560, d. ?) m. James VII, King of Scots (b. 1559, d. ?)​
2) Edward VII, King of England, France, and Ireland (b. 1561, d. ?) m. Maria of Austria (b. 1564)​
3) Elizabeth (b. 1562, d. ?)​
4) Francis, Duke of York (b. 1563, d. ?)​
5) Henry, Duke of Bedford (b. 1565, d. ?)​
6) Laeticia (b. 1566, d. ?)​
7) William, Duke of Somerset (b. 1567, d. ?)​
8) Anne (b. 1569, d. ?)​
9) Mary (b. 1570, d. ?)​
10) Margaret (b. 1571, d. ?)​
11) Edmund, Duke of Richmond (b. 1573, d. ?)​
12) Thomas, Duke of Exeter (b. 1574, d. ?)​
13) Maud (b. 1576, d. ?)​

[1] Edmund inherits his late brother’s engagement to Élisabeth of Valois but let’s be real, this guy is the son of Henry VIII and Katherine Howard. Scandalous marriages practically run in his blood. He and Lettice meet as teenagers and elope shortly before Edmund’s Valois princess is due to arrive. It turns out to be for the best though, as their robust descendancy indicates.
Spanish Habsburgs in the scenario. Any input is appreciated!


Felipe II, King of Spain, etc. (b. 1527, d. ?) m. Maria Manuela, Princess of Portugal (b. 1527, d. 1545) in 1544, had issue (a); Maria of Portugal (b. 1521, d. 1558) in 1548, had issue (b); Marguerite of France (b. 1523, d. ?) in 1559, had issue (c)
1a) Maria I, Queen of Portugal (b. 1545, d. 1617) m. Duarte II, King of Portugal (b. 1541, d. 1576) in 1560, had issue​
1) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1562)​
2) Isabel (b. 1563, d. ?)​
3) Duarte III, King of Portugal (b. 1565, d. ?) m. María of Austria (b. 1568, d. ?)​
4) Manuel, Duke of Beja (b. 1567, d. 1583)​
5) Maria (b. 1568, d. ?)​
6) Filipe (b. and d. 1570)​
7) Carlos, Duke of Viseu (b. 1572, d. 1581)​
8) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1573)​
9) Catarina (b. 1575, d. ?)​
2b) Isabel (b. and d. 1549)​
3b) Carlos II, King of Spain (b. 1551, d. ?) m. Anna of Austria (b. 1549, d. 1580) in 1566, had issue (a); Christine of Lorraine (b. 1565, d. ?) in 1582, had issue (b)​
1a) Felipe (1567-1574)​
2a) María (b. 1568, d. ?) m. Duarte III, King of Portugal (b. 1565, d. ?)​
3a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1570)​
4a) Ana (b. 1572, d. 1575)​
5a) Fernando Felix (b. 1573, d. 1580)​
6a) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1575)​
7a) Carlos (b. 1577, d. 1579)​
8a) Margarita (b. 1579, d. 1606)​
9a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1580)​
10b) Carlos III, King of Spain, etc (b. 1584) m. Margaret of Austria-Styria (b. 1584, d. 1603) in 1599, had issue (a); Constance of Austria-Styria (b. 1588, d. ?) in 1605, had issue (b)​
11b) Juan (b. and d. 1586)​
12b) Catalina (b. 1588, d. ?) m. *son of Infanta Magdalena and her Savoyard husband*​
4b) Leonor Eugenia (b. 1552, d. ?) m. Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1551, d. ?) in 1568, had issue​
5b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1554)​
6b) Juana Severina (b. 1555, d. ?) m. Karl Friedrich, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b. 1555, d. ?) in 1573, had issue​
7b) Fernando (b. and d. 1557)​
8b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1558; twin of 9b)​
9b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1558; twin of 8b)​
10c) Filip, Lord of the Netherlands (Felipe Lorenzo; b. 1561, d. ?) m. Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1564, d. ?) in 1580, had issue​
11c) Magdalena (b. 1563, d. ?) m. *son of Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy and Élisabeth of Valois*​
 
My favorite ASB scenario: [ @isabella @HortenseMancini ]

Henry VIII, King of England (1491-1547) m. a) Katherine of Aragon (1485-1536), b) Maria of Portugal (1521-1577)
1a) Henry, Prince of Wales (1511-1541) m. Charlotte, Princess of France (1516-1544)​
- no surviving issue -​
2a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558) m. Francis II, King of France (1518-1560)​
1) Francis III, King of France (1536-1591)​
2) Elizabeth, Princess of France (1538-1598)​
3) Marie, Princess of France (1542-1605)​
4) Katherine, Princess of France (1544-1596)​
5) Henry IX, King of England (1546-1608)​
3b) Eleanor, Princess of England (1537-1599) m. Philip II, King of Spain (1527-1598)​
4b) Edward, Prince of Wales (1538-1546)​
5b) Cecily, Princess of England (1540-1600) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527-1596) [1]​
7b) Edmund I, King of England (1541-1551)​
[1] Maria of Austria died giving birth to Elisabeth, OTL Queen of France
No way who Mary would be allowed to inherit England here, plus Charlotte is an extremely unlikely match for Henry jr as OTL she was tied to Charles V until her death and afterwards would marry James V not Henry of England. Catherine of Austria, a surviving Maria of Portugal (the 1513 one, meaning who OTL Maria of Viseu will be an Eleanor after her mother and aunt) or Renée of Brittany would be all likelier matches for him in my opinion. Anne or better Sybille of Cleves also would work and France can always offerIsabella of Navarre as proxy.
Just have Charles v agree to marry Isabel of Portugal once he becomes king of Castile and Eleanor will be the one to marry in Portugal (to João)
Charles would never accept such blackmail (plus Henry VIII’s second wife is Manuel’s daughter by Eleanor). The only way in which you could see an Eleanor/Joao match is if Manuel died before marrying her or Charles arrived in Spain already married.
 
Spanish Habsburgs in the scenario. Any input is appreciated!


Felipe II, King of Spain, etc. (b. 1527, d. ?) m. Maria Manuela, Princess of Portugal (b. 1527, d. 1545) in 1544, had issue (a); Maria of Portugal (b. 1521, d. 1558) in 1548, had issue (b); Marguerite of France (b. 1523, d. ?) in 1559, had issue (c)
1a) Maria I, Queen of Portugal (b. 1545, d. 1617) m. Duarte II, King of Portugal (b. 1541, d. 1576) in 1560, had issue​
1) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1562)​
2) Isabel (b. 1563, d. ?)​
3) Duarte III, King of Portugal (b. 1565, d. ?) m. María of Austria (b. 1568, d. ?)​
4) Manuel, Duke of Beja (b. 1567, d. 1583)​
5) Maria (b. 1568, d. ?)​
6) Filipe (b. and d. 1570)​
7) Carlos, Duke of Viseu (b. 1572, d. 1581)​
8) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1573)​
9) Catarina (b. 1575, d. ?)​
2b) Isabel (b. and d. 1549)​
3b) Carlos II, King of Spain (b. 1551, d. ?) m. Anna of Austria (b. 1549, d. 1580) in 1566, had issue (a); Christine of Lorraine (b. 1565, d. ?) in 1582, had issue (b)​
1a) Felipe (1567-1574)​
2a) María (b. 1568, d. ?) m. Duarte III, King of Portugal (b. 1565, d. ?)​
3a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1570)​
4a) Ana (b. 1572, d. 1575)​
5a) Fernando Felix (b. 1573, d. 1580)​
6a) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1575)​
7a) Carlos (b. 1577, d. 1579)​
8a) Margarita (b. 1579, d. 1606)​
9a) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1580)​
10b) Carlos III, King of Spain, etc (b. 1584) m. Margaret of Austria-Styria (b. 1584, d. 1603) in 1599, had issue (a); Constance of Austria-Styria (b. 1588, d. ?) in 1605, had issue (b)​
11b) Juan (b. and d. 1586)​
12b) Catalina (b. 1588, d. ?) m. *son of Infanta Magdalena and her Savoyard husband*​
4b) Leonor Eugenia (b. 1552, d. ?) m. Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1551, d. ?) in 1568, had issue​
5b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1554)​
6b) Juana Severina (b. 1555, d. ?) m. Karl Friedrich, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b. 1555, d. ?) in 1573, had issue​
7b) Fernando (b. and d. 1557)​
8b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1558; twin of 9b)​
9b) Stillborn son (b. and d. 1558; twin of 8b)​
10c) Filip, Lord of the Netherlands (Felipe Lorenzo; b. 1561, d. ?) m. Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1564, d. ?) in 1580, had issue​
11c) Magdalena (b. 1563, d. ?) m. *son of Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy and Élisabeth of Valois*​
Elisabeth would never ever end in Savoy and Philip would not marry Marguerite, who is already in her late 30s, as third wife. Marguerite (or Claud) to Emmanuel Philibert is a far likelier match.
 
There's always Catherine of Austria.
or Kristina of Denmark- if only to stop her marrying James V of Scotland.- while she is considerably younger than Harry Jr (and waiting would be a risk), as pointed out, there aren't a whole host of "of age" options. Catalina of Austria likely still ends in Portugal, since the inclusion of the duchess of Viseu suggests that her mom still married as OTL. Renée of France would be an option, except François I likely still wants a brother-ni-law who can't use her to claim Brittany. Isabelle of Navarre is likely dismissed as "too low", and her wardship/marriage was in the hands of Marguerite d'Angoulême who engaged her to another of her wards, the duc de Rohan.
Magdalena (b. 1563, d. ?) m. *son of Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy and Élisabeth of Valois*
Agreed with @isabella Emanuele Filiberto was trying to marry Élisabeth concurrently to Felipe II trying to get her for D. Carlos. Henri II refused to consider a match between his eldest daughter and Savoie. And Savoie wouldn't accept Claude when offered. There was a reason that Henri II forced the marriage of Emanuele Filiberto and "the old spinster" [his description] Marguerite through on his deathbed.

If Marguerite's not around, Emanuele either marries Juana of Spain and moves to Portugal/Spain (the governorship of Naples was on the table, IIRC). Or he marries Anna of Egmond (Willem the Silent's first wife) and becomes Governor of the Spanish Netherlands
 
or Kristina of Denmark- if only to stop her marrying James V of Scotland.- while she is considerably younger than Harry Jr (and waiting would be a risk), as pointed out, there aren't a whole host of "of age" options. Catalina of Austria likely still ends in Portugal, since the inclusion of the duchess of Viseu suggests that her mom still married as OTL. Renée of France would be an option, except François I likely still wants a brother-ni-law who can't use her to claim Brittany. Isabelle of Navarre is likely dismissed as "too low", and her wardship/marriage was in the hands of Marguerite d'Angoulême who engaged her to another of her wards, the duc de Rohan.
Marguerite would be glad to send Isabelle in England (she had been offered for foreign matches) and she would be seen as suitable considering the absence of better alternatives, as she had a good bloodline, better connections and was daughter of a King. Else Sybille of Cleves (or Anne) had a good dowry and connections and the right age and Manuel could have a surviving daughter by Maria after the POD (either the 1513 Maria lived or one of the OTLs Henry or Duarte is born as Maria)
Agreed with @isabella Emanuele Filiberto was trying to marry Élisabeth concurrently to Felipe II trying to get her for D. Carlos. Henri II refused to consider a match between his eldest daughter and Savoie. And Savoie wouldn't accept Claude when offered. There was a reason that Henri II forced the marriage of Emanuele Filiberto and "the old spinster" [his description] Marguerite through on his deathbed.
You are sure about Savoy refuting Claude? I have read who he was willing enough to marry her for recovering his lands and she was married to Lorraine also for taking away any alternative to the old spinster Marguerite for the Duke of Savoy
If Marguerite's not around, Emanuele either marries Juana of Spain and moves to Portugal/Spain (the governorship of Naples was on the table, IIRC). Or he marries Anna of Egmond (Willem the Silent's first wife) and becomes Governor of the Spanish Netherlands
Good luck in getting Juana to agree to remarry…
 
She'd be the senior heir
That do not mean anything, and is likely who Henry would get her to renounce to her rights before a French marriage. Else the nobles would exclude her from the Crown, likely calling James V to be their King or choosing someone else. Being the theoretically senior heir for a female in England in this times mean exactly NOTHING
 
Last edited:
That do not mean anything, and is likely who Henry would get her to renounce to her rights before a French marriage. Else the nobles would exclude her from the Crown, likely calling James V to be their King or choosing someone else. Being the theoretically senior heir for a female in England in this times mean exactly NOTHING
I am sure, but as stated earlier: when she has two sons and an army to invade, I am sure the nobles in question would think a lot harder about bypassing her...
 
Top