List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

Kellan Sullivan

TheBeanieBaron said:
I’m thinking he would marry a princess from a prominent German monarchy like Prussia due to the massive dowry he has.
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Except George II not only hated his Prussian nephew but Frederick the Great was also backing the Stuarts. I suspect it'll be an equally bland match to some German mediocrity. Good news is that George II will get his fondest wish and Cumberland will succeed in Hannover. I suspect George II will be more worried about finding Butcher Bill a wife than Freddie
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

Kellan Sullivan said:
Except George II not only hated his Prussian nephew but Frederick the Great was also backing the Stuarts. I suspect it'll be an equally bland match to some German mediocrity. Good news is that George II will get his fondest wish and Cumberland will succeed in Hannover. I suspect George II will be more worried about finding Butcher Bill a wife than Freddie
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Why do you say that? Frederick has two sons with Diana. Surely the second one would get Hannover, if not the eldest.
 

Kellan Sullivan

FalconHonour said:
Why do you say that? Frederick has two sons with Diana. Surely the second one would get Hannover, if not the eldest.
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The marriage to Diana would be unequal under Welf Law, that was why George II was even willing to consider it OTL. It gave him a way of disinheriting Fred from Hannover without having to "reach" for it. His other plan was to marry Butcher Bill to a Catholic so that he would be cut out of the British succession and he could split it that way.

It was, as pointed out, only when Walpole pointed out the fact that giving Fred a fortune in a dowry would likely allow him to plot against his dad with temerity that George walked away from the idea.

True, Freddie could bribe the emperor to have his match with Diana declared retroactively equal, but that necessitates him out living his dad.
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
The marriage to Diana would be unequal under Welf Law, that was why George II was even willing to consider it OTL. It gave him a way of disinheriting Fred from Hannover without having to "reach" for it. His other plan was to marry Butcher Bill to a Catholic so that he would be cut out of the British succession and he could split it that way.

It was, as pointed out, only when Walpole pointed out the fact that giving Fred a fortune in a dowry would likely allow him to plot against his dad with temerity that George walked away from the idea.

True, Freddie could bribe the emperor to have his match with Diana declared retroactively equal, but that necessitates him out living his dad.
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furthermore this scenario would also be interesting for the relations between Hanover and Austria, as well as making the former less at risk of continuous invasion, whenever London starts a colonial war, also allowing better political freedom in the HRE for the Welf, no longer hindered by the parliamentarians ( all in all it's a pretty good scenario for the electorate, although I won't deny that I always liked to imagine how Freddie would have managed the personal union, given that he wanted to seem British ( as he later suggested to his son ) but at the same time he was born and raised in Hanover, so he would have an interest in the place ( at least to a much greater extent than the first 20 years of George III Otl's rule )
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

Kellan Sullivan said:
The marriage to Diana would be unequal under Welf Law, that was why George II was even willing to consider it OTL. It gave him a way of disinheriting Fred from Hannover without having to "reach" for it. His other plan was to marry Butcher Bill to a Catholic so that he would be cut out of the British succession and he could split it that way.

It was, as pointed out, only when Walpole pointed out the fact that giving Fred a fortune in a dowry would likely allow him to plot against his dad with temerity that George walked away from the idea.

True, Freddie could bribe the emperor to have his match with Diana declared retroactively equal, but that necessitates him out living his dad.
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Ah, I see...
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
would be fun if Diana's son marries Hannah Lennox though. That would no doubt satisfy @Charles III Stuart 's desire for an ethnically British Hannoverian. In fact, probably one who's more British than the Stuarts
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but which would probably continue the tradition of persecution and possible massacring the Irish, which English rulers have adapted as their own from Henry VIII Tudor onwards ( mainly if they can use the excuse of religious uprising to use force against them, and which was partly supported as right by the London political thought of the time, just look at Queen Victoria ( 1 ) and her "great help " during the famine ( or the disgusting method of souperism ) as well as having no alliance with the continent


1 ) yet she was the most British of her relatives ( this is to show that it is not necessary to be X nationality in percentage compared to others to do well or badly, but rather to be in agreement or disagreement with the policies of the elite of the time ( thing that we must remember the sovereign was its main representative, so he had to somehow find a balance between the different fighting factions and look for a field that was in common among all ) because the majority of aid for Ireland came from the network created by Fidei Propaganda in Italy in the Austrian Empire and in France, then from the Ottoman Empire and finally from the Queen and the USA ( at least that's what it says in my books history )
 
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Kellan Sullivan

Nuraghe said:
the USA ( at least that's what it says in my books history )
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didn't Sicily also give? I'm sure I read somewhere that Sicily and the Dutch also gave (at least token amounts- the Dutch were experiencing their own distress due to failed harvests*)

*the irony being that the British were even less helpful to their "coreligionists", the Dutch, than they were to the Irish
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
didn't Sicily also give? I'm sure I read somewhere that Sicily and the Dutch also gave (at least token amounts- the Dutch were experiencing their own distress due to failed harvests*)

*the irony being that the British were even less helpful to their "coreligionists", the Dutch, than they were to the Irish
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Sicily was included in the donations coming from Fidei propaganda ( together with all the other pre-unification states, in particular immediately after Pius IX published the bull " Praedecessores nostros " ) in particular, numerous financial aid, basic necessities and medical aid were sent


Here are the sources of the various aids sent from Ireland through Fidei propaganda and the Catholic Church in general

500,861 francs raised by France alone

British Catholics had donated around £1,100

In total, the activism of individuals, networks and the Church raised £11,138 from the Italian states, plus £2850 raised by Catholic communities in the Austrian Empire, Bavaria, France, Switzerland and New Granada
 
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Kellan Sullivan

An idea based on the correspondence of Louis XI from the time:

François II, Duke of Brittany [from 1458] (b.1433) 1m: 1455 Marguerite of Brittany (1443-1469); 2m: 1471 Juana of Aragon [1] (b.1454)

[1m.] François (1463-1463)​
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[2m.] Anne [2] (b.1473)​
​
[2m.] Jean, Comte de Vertus (b.1475)​
​
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1476)​
​
[2m.] Isabeau (b.1479)​
​
[2m.] Ferdinand (b.1484)​
​
​

[1] OTL queen of Naples
[2] I'm not sure what the reason was for the choice behind the names of either François II's daughters OTL (since there weren't Anne's on either side. Isabeau might've been for Isabella of Scots)

@Brita @isabella @Jan Olbracht @Nuraghe @material_boy
 

Kellan Sullivan

A Different Union of Lancaster and York (with a different Philip and Elizabeth)

Charles I, Duke of Burgundy (1433-1477) 1m: 1440 Catherine de France (1429-1448); 2m: 1454 Isabelle de Bourbon (1436-1465); 3m: ?

[2m.] Marie (b.1457) m: 1475 Maximilian, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459)​
​
issue​
​
[2m.] Philippe IV [1], Duke of Burgundy, King of England [jure uxoris from 1485] [2] (b.1462) m: 1485 Elizabeth I, Queen of England (b.1466)​
​
Elizabeth (b.1486)​
​
Mary (1488-1493)​
​
Charles I, King of England (b.1489)​
​
Stillborn Daughter (1492)​
​
Stillborn Son (1493)​
​
Edward, Duke of York (b.1495)​
​
Stillborn Daughter (1498)​

[1] b) son ([mid-Nov] 1462-young). The chapter of Brussels Sainte-Gudule authorised the baptism of “un autre enfant du comte de Charolais” [who was recently born] by charter dated 24 Nov 1462[713]. This son presumably died young as no other reference to him has been found. No record has been found of his baptismal name, assuming that he survived long enough for the baptism to take place.
I'm unsure if Charles will remarry to Margaret of York if he has a son (that seems to have been the main motivation for the marriage). Maybe Marge ends up in Brittany instead?
[2] Henry VII mounts his expedition of OTL, but dies at Bosworth field, leaving the Lancastrian cause, politely put, up a creek. Philippe's claim would be OTL:
A transaction of his own of this time, the duke did not publish. It was a procedure perhaps justified by these wonderful "mutations in the world" which impressed Commines as strange and terrible. The Duke of Burgundy caused a legal document to be drawn up attesting his own heirship to Henry VI. of England, and filed the same in the Abbey of St. Bertin with all due formality. If there came more "mutations" in the world whose very existence was a new experience to Philip de Commines, Charles was ready to interpose his own plank in the new structure.
In the archives of the House of Croy in the château of Beaumont, rests this document, which was duly signed by Charles on November 3, 1471, in his own hand "so that greater faith" be given to the statement that no one was truer heir to the Lancaster House than Charles of Burgundy.33 Two canons attested the instrument as notaries, and the witnesses were Hugonet, Humbercourt, and Bladet.
Philippe gets the "jure uxoris" title because a) he's already ruler of a foreign realm and b) they decide that his "reign" is for Elizabeth's lifetime only.

@RedKing
 
RedKing

RedKing

Kellan Sullivan said:
A Different Union of Lancaster and York (with a different Philip and Elizabeth)

Charles I, Duke of Burgundy (1433-1477) 1m: 1440 Catherine de France (1429-1448); 2m: 1454 Isabelle de Bourbon (1436-1465); 3m: ?

[2m.] Marie (b.1457) m: 1475 Maximilian, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459)​
​
issue​
​
[2m.] Philippe IV [1], Duke of Burgundy, King of England [jure uxoris from 1485] [2] (b.1462) m: 1485 Elizabeth I, Queen of England (b.1466)​
​
Elizabeth (b.1486)​
​
Mary (1488-1493)​
​
Charles I, King of England (b.1489)​
​
Stillborn Daughter (1492)​
​
Stillborn Son (1493)​
​
Edward, Duke of York (b.1495)​
​
Stillborn Daughter (1498)​

[1] b) son ([mid-Nov] 1462-young). The chapter of Brussels Sainte-Gudule authorised the baptism of “un autre enfant du comte de Charolais” [who was recently born] by charter dated 24 Nov 1462[713]. This son presumably died young as no other reference to him has been found. No record has been found of his baptismal name, assuming that he survived long enough for the baptism to take place.
I'm unsure if Charles will remarry to Margaret of York if he has a son (that seems to have been the main motivation for the marriage). Maybe Marge ends up in Brittany instead?
[2] Henry VII mounts his expedition of OTL, but dies at Bosworth field, leaving the Lancastrian cause, politely put, up a creek. Philippe's claim would be OTL:
A transaction of his own of this time, the duke did not publish. It was a procedure perhaps justified by these wonderful "mutations in the world" which impressed Commines as strange and terrible. The Duke of Burgundy caused a legal document to be drawn up attesting his own heirship to Henry VI. of England, and filed the same in the Abbey of St. Bertin with all due formality. If there came more "mutations" in the world whose very existence was a new experience to Philip de Commines, Charles was ready to interpose his own plank in the new structure.
In the archives of the House of Croy in the château of Beaumont, rests this document, which was duly signed by Charles on November 3, 1471, in his own hand "so that greater faith" be given to the statement that no one was truer heir to the Lancaster House than Charles of Burgundy.33 Two canons attested the instrument as notaries, and the witnesses were Hugonet, Humbercourt, and Bladet.
Philippe gets the "jure uxoris" title because a) he's already ruler of a foreign realm and b) they decide that his "reign" is for Elizabeth's lifetime only.

@RedKing
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I love it! How does the Anglo-Burgundian union go and how does France respond?
 
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