List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
The first one was illegitimate meaning who that do not count (Ferdinand II of Aragon also had an illegitimate daughter named Joanna OTL). If Isabella jr died as OTL then switching the names of Catherine‘s first two daughters by Ferdinand would be enough
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Isabella of Aragon gets a hail Mary.
Isabella II of Castile and I of Aragon, Queen Consort of Portugal b 1470 d 1519 m Manuel I of Portugal and Castile and Aragon b 1469 d 1521
Issue:
-Miguel I of Spain and Portugal b 1498 m a) Magdalena of Navarre b 1494 d 1517, b) *insert princess here*
Infante Ferdinand b 1503 m?
Infanta Isabella b 1507 m?
Isabella II of Castile and I of Aragon, Queen Consort of Portugal b 1470 d 1519 m Manuel I of Portugal and Castile and Aragon b 1469 d 1521
Issue:
-Miguel I of Spain and Portugal b 1498 m a) Magdalena of Navarre b 1494 d 1517, b) *insert princess here*
Infante Ferdinand b 1503 m?
Infanta Isabella b 1507 m?
He might become Viceroy of Naples, or his brothers steward in the Iberian kingdoms. Miguel can't be in all the four kingdoms at the same time so Ferdinand have to step in for him at several times.
There's an argument put forward that Edward V escaped to Coldridge in Devon and was the "king crowned in Dublin" (rather than Lambert Simnel, who was swapped in at the last minute) :
Essentially it hinges on several contemporary accounts that don't line up with the official line:
- First is why the Earl of Lincoln would've backed a teenage boy explicitly excluded from the throne by the Titulus Regius and his father's attain Der when Richard III had made it clear that Lincoln was his preferred heir until he had another son
- Why would the Marquess of Dorset have cooperated with Lincoln in such an adventure? He stood to benefit more from his half-sister being queen than he did from his ward becoming king. After all, Elizabeth Wydeville was outright blamed for Clarence's execution, so there's no reason to think that Warwick would be "merciful" to not only a woman who had (in essence) murdered his father (or her son), but also the wife of a man who had essentially locked him up (Elizabeth of York)
- A third problem comes from the Irish lords themselves. Several of them who had been involved in the rebellion were in attendance at a banquet Henry VII gave at Greenwich. Lambert Simnel was serving at table. Not a single one of the Irishmen recognized Lambert when Henry presented HIM as the false Warwick. Now, to be fair, they didn't say Lambert WASNT Warwick either, but it seems odd that ALL of the Irish (around a dozen IIRC) kept mum. That Lambert himself stayed in character and didn't accuse them for not standing by him seems unusual, after all, if Henry VII really were as brilliant of a psych-out master everyone always claims, it would've been a perfect way of getting the Irish protesting loyalty to him to avoid the axe.
- André, not sure if that was his first or last name, but he was a French attendant of Henry's from Brittany and served as Prince Arthur's Chamberlain (I think) MET the "king in Dublin" and described him as a young man of 15 or thereabouts, Lambert, when captured, was called a "boy" and described as being "a child of ten years of age, son of Thomas Simnel, late of Oxford". What happened to the years difference in age between his coronation and his capture?
- Regarding his coronation, in his "manifesto" Lincoln asserts that he is to "restore" King Edward to his throne. How could you restore Warwick if he had never been king? Or lost anything?
- Again André, when he accompanied the herald Henry VII sent to Ireland (John Yonge, Falcon Pursuivant, who was paid £3 before he went and another £5 when he returned) to investigate the imposter, reports that "he [Yonge] had been impressed by his [Lambert's] ability to answer his probing questions". These questions were not only about the court of Edward IV, since both Dorset and Lincoln, could've supplied those, but also about the "court" at Ludlow. With those questions thoughtfully provided by none other than Edward V's ex-governess, Margaret Beaufort's half-sister, Elizabeth St. John. Who had been with her charge until he'd come back to London in 1483. As historian Gordon Smith points out "explain who in Ireland would have had detailed knowledge of both sufficient to deceive a herald. The failure of the herald's trap suggests that the pretender may have been genuine and a detailed knowledge suggests that he was an older boy or at least, a young man".
Isabella would need a different mind as she basically wanted only die after giving to her parents an heir to replace her
WI: Vlad Bene had married Ludmila of Podiebrady like he was supposed to:
Vladislav II, King of Bohemia [from 1471] (b. 1456) m: 1471 Ludmila of Podiebrady (b. 1456)
Vladislav II, King of Bohemia [from 1471] (b. 1456) m: 1471 Ludmila of Podiebrady (b. 1456)
Eliska (b. 1472)
Karel (1474-1476)
Stillborn Son (1475)
Jan Václav, Crown Prince of Bohemia, Margrave of Lusatia (b. 1477)
Barbara (b. 1480)
@Zygmunt Stary @Jan OlbrachtSo if Juan dies otl and his daughter (or son) follows suit.... Then Isabel Jr automatically becomes queen but if she dies in childbirth then the throne goes to her son (otl Miguel) who rules for 2yrs or so the it's to Joanna then to Karl.. So the orders a bit like:
1. Isabel I
2. Juan III
3. Isabel II
4. Miguel I
5. Joanna & Philipp
6. Charles
Did I get it right?
Is it so difficult to belive that surviving and having her son thriving might help her get better? Plus Manuel seemed like a good husband.
Love it when Isabel II becomes the queen with Manuel... Like mother Iike daughter perhaps?
Well, as I say, I'm not sure about the Edward angle, but the Richard angle... More plausible than I thought it was going to be, I'll be honest.
I read somewhere that she used to have bad dreams of her own death..... Maybe change that to some angel telling her to until Iberia and conquer the Muslims perhaps?
And Manuel genuinely seemed like a good guy, that's for sure
Yes, she wanted only die. She had to be forced to eat, for the health of her baby and herself, during the pregnancy and there is no way who she would recover from childbirth as she has no will to live at all
Whatever he was the real one or a fake, ”Simnel” was claiming to be Edward V, not Warwick or Shrewsbury
