Lionel of Antwerp survives.

So this is something that I've brought up before, but after doing some reading I was wanting to gather some more opinions.

Lionel of Antwerp was the 1st Duke of Clarence and second surviving son of Edward III.

He died in 1368, aged 30, after his marriage to Violante Visconti, he had previously been married to Elizabeth de Burgh, through whom he'd sired a daughter Philippa, who would later give the Mortimers and the Yorks their solid claim to the throne.

I guess this long rambling thing is that, say Lionel does not die in 1368, and instead returns to England with his new bride, who had a sizeable inheritance herself, what role would Lionel and his wife play in England during the 1370s and onwards? What role could any children they might have play? Especially in Italy, and in the court and regency of Richard II?
 
So this is something that I've brought up before, but after doing some reading I was wanting to gather some more opinions.

Lionel of Antwerp was the 1st Duke of Clarence and second surviving son of Edward III.

He died in 1368, aged 30, after his marriage to Violante Visconti, he had previously been married to Elizabeth de Burgh, through whom he'd sired a daughter Philippa, who would later give the Mortimers and the Yorks their solid claim to the throne.

I guess this long rambling thing is that, say Lionel does not die in 1368, and instead returns to England with his new bride, who had a sizeable inheritance herself, what role would Lionel and his wife play in England during the 1370s and onwards? What role could any children they might have play? Especially in Italy, and in the court and regency of Richard II?

Well he would have a role in Richard II's regency, or there would be war. If he was still alive in 1399 (possible) there is no way Henry of Bolingbroke would of been able to usurp the throne. If he had a son, there is little chance Bolingbroke would of usurped the throne. This could very possibly butterfly out tWotR. Maybe his possible son is the one who usurps the throne, he would have an easier time at it being the legitimate heir presumptive.
 
Well he would have a role in Richard II's regency, or there would be war. If he was still alive in 1399 (possible) there is no way Henry of Bolingbroke would of been able to usurp the throne. If he had a son, there is little chance Bolingbroke would of usurped the throne. This could very possibly butterfly out tWotR. Maybe his possible son is the one who usurps the throne, he would have an easier time at it being the legitimate heir presumptive.
Alright interesting and say Richard II dies in 1381? During the peasants rebellion would Lionel take harsher stance than his nephew?
 
Furthermore, what do we actually know about Lionel? There seems to be scant information on him. If he was as good a politician as his father was, I presume he'd dominate the regency of his young nephew, perhaps without such a solid power base, he'd be less feared by the commons compared to his brother?
 
Well he would have a role in Richard II's regency, or there would be war. If he was still alive in 1399 (possible) there is no way Henry of Bolingbroke would of been able to usurp the throne. If he had a son, there is little chance Bolingbroke would of usurped the throne. This could very possibly butterfly out tWotR. Maybe his possible son is the one who usurps the throne, he would have an easier time at it being the legitimate heir presumptive.
Agreed though since Henry initially claimed his invasion was to regain rights to Lancaster perhaps these would be secured on negotiation with Lionel.
 
I can see that. Would Richard look at his uncle with suspicion do you think?
Possibly. If so he might allow Henry to return on the death of John of Gaunt and inherit Lancaster. Of course the entire way Henry was exiled anyways could be butterflied.
A local Duke Henry of Lancaster could have all manner of implications for Richard's court.
 
Possibly. If so he might allow Henry to return on the death of John of Gaunt and inherit Lancaster. Of course the entire way Henry was exiled anyways could be butterflied.
A local Duke Henry of Lancaster could have all manner of implications for Richard's court.
Oh? What sort of implications?
 
Would his existence have any effect on the Black Prince's wars in Aquitaine? After all, that is why we ended up with a regency for Richard II - both because his father, and his elder brother, predeceased him out there.
 
Would his existence have any effect on the Black Prince's wars in Aquitaine? After all, that is why we ended up with a regency for Richard II - both because his father, and his elder brother, predeceased him out there.

Hmm potentislly. If th black prince doesn't catch dysentery which might require his army not getting it. And of coure having another brother means one more able commander
Just the usual power politics. Who were in favour at the time of Richard II? How might Lionel being around change that? How would Henry fit in if he's become Duke of Lancaster normally.

Ah okay so how he handled people like de la pole etc?
 
How many kids do you think Lionel and his wife could have? two or three? Could we see one of them marrying Richard if they are a girl?
 
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