Lincoln survives, sends all African-Americans "back" to Liberia

Lusitania

Donor
Problem 1. gathering them all up
there are millions of Africans, half-africans, and freemen that would have to be gathered up
Problem 2. transport
there are not enough ships on this planet to transport them back
Problem 3. getting them to willingly leave
see #1 and #2 - some of them won't want to leave the US

but let us say we can get past problems 1 to 3 through ASB.

Problem 4. surviving on Africa.

Nine chances out of ten it would lead to a mass death senerio where the Africans sent back would all die or wish they were dead.

That is why I have stated that the American action would be on the scale or greater than the Holocaust by Nazi Germany.
 
I might think the program might move about a million more people to Liberia before it collapsed as logistically impractical. In America, it would only be a dent to the ex-slave population that would have little effect into the twentieth century. What about Liberia? It would be more Americanized, but what about the skill and education levels of the new immigrants? If they could use some of the new machines available in America, would they have the skills to build them? Would American businessmen have moved industrializing technology to Africa to take advantage of the new work force?
 

Lusitania

Donor
I might think the program might move about a million more people to Liberia before it collapsed as logistically impractical. In America, it would only be a dent to the ex-slave population that would have little effect into the twentieth century. What about Liberia? It would be more Americanized, but what about the skill and education levels of the new immigrants? If they could use some of the new machines available in America, would they have the skills to build them? Would American businessmen have moved industrializing technology to Africa to take advantage of the new work force?
Sorry but to even move 1 million people would be impractical and logistical impossible. For after the black have right to vote then they would be ineligible. So to move people it would of been available over a short period such as to 1880 max. Do we even have any idea the logistic nightmare and what are the people going to do there what of the hundreds of thousands who are there? What of lodgings and food? We talking about 1860-1880 when food production was very much local throughout 3rd world. How would the loss of that nNy people affect southern economies?

Sorry if Africans -Americans wanted to return to Africa they could of and some did but 99% did not. So to move 1/3 of population would of caused riots, worsening race wars and unfortunately genocide when 1/2 to 3/4 of those forcibly move died along with the nightmare to locals in Africa. Liberia was buffeted by French on one side and British colonies on other. Where these settlers go even if they transported. Liberia in 1880 not support that many people?
 
Sorry but to even move 1 million people would be impractical and logistical impossible. For after the black have right to vote then they would be ineligible. So to move people it would of been available over a short period such as to 1880 max. Do we even have any idea the logistic nightmare and what are the people going to do there what of the hundreds of thousands who are there? What of lodgings and food? We talking about 1860-1880 when food production was very much local throughout 3rd world. How would the loss of that nNy people affect southern economies?

Sorry if Africans -Americans wanted to return to Africa they could of and some did but 99% did not. So to move 1/3 of population would of caused riots, worsening race wars and unfortunately genocide when 1/2 to 3/4 of those forcibly move died along with the nightmare to locals in Africa. Liberia was buffeted by French on one side and British colonies on other. Where these settlers go even if they transported. Liberia in 1880 not support that many people?
OK, a million is too many. So the program collapses after say, 100,000. The logistics would bring up the problems you mentioned. The American situation changes little. Liberia will still need an influx of food and sustenance. But if the numbers are more manageable, could Liberia benefit?
 

Lusitania

Donor
OK, a million is too many. So the program collapses after say, 100,000. The logistics would bring up the problems you mentioned. The American situation changes little. Liberia will still need an influx of food and sustenance. But if the numbers are more manageable, could Liberia benefit?
no because sending 100,000 people would cause massive disruption, wars for resources. Its not there was a huge amount of high quality land available. The small amount of African -Americans sent there iOTL suffered huge amount of attrition and there was fighting between them and other tribes in the area. Also there was no ability to verify that craftsmen were sent. It could of been only people who were farmers and they would of not been farmers who were experienced growing the food they needed to survive and knew what foods would of grown there. The farmers from the south where majority of the settlers would of been drawn from would of been recently emancipated blacks from cotton or tobacco farms that were just farm hands. Intelligent yes but not farmers who were experienced in planning what to plant and such that was something they had not been taught but was something controlled by whites or overseers. Also none could read of write since it had been illegal to teach blacks in the southern states prior to the civil war.
 
We need to look at the OP. It is from Baby Kata, who has been banned for advocating ethnic cleansing. This isn't even his most outlandish post. So OTL really does represent the logistic limit for moving ex-slaves to Liberia.
 
@Baby Kata you have posted about sending black people "back to where they came from", as well as starting a thread where you posted inflammatory comments calling for extermination, enslavement, forced conversion and deportation of Muslim Algerians. You have also openly called for white settlers to colonise the land, and stated that the result would be a "superior" civilisation. It seems clear what your agenda is.

@Baby Kata has been banned. Good riddance.
 

Lusitania

Donor
We need to look at the OP. It is from Baby Kata, who has been banned for advocating ethnic cleansing. This isn't even his most outlandish post. So OTL really does represent the logistic limit for moving ex-slaves to Liberia.
The only reason I participated in the thread was that it was based on an opinion held by some historical people in the 19th century as a way to counter the problem they had. It had to be looked upon in the context of when it was advocated, how much support it had and what the implications if it had gone ahead. The person who originally started is irrelevant, my only limitations is to discuss topic in and around the ACW without bringing any prejudice or racist bias into the discussion.
 
That is why I have stated that the American action would be on the scale or greater than the Holocaust by Nazi Germany.
It would not have been, as the Nazis were deliberate about going out of their way to kill people and pulling them out of neutral countries when the time came.
@Baby Kata has been banned. Good riddance.
And I just realized he was the one with the Persia naming thread. Anyways, thinking over the mechanics and history of this scheme isn't too bad, as it helps us look at the historical context, as well as the reasons it wasn't done. Such as how knowing how the British looked at Guyana as a place to put Assyrians but decided the areas they searched were not very lovable explains why the some maps show it as an area proposed for Jewish settlement, but that never had any serious attempt.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It would not have been, as the Nazis were deliberate about going out of their way to kill people and pulling them out of neutral countries when the time came..

The original premise of rounding up 4 million blacks by force shooting those who resisted and transporting them by armed force regardless of their health and then dumping 4 million people in wilds of Africa would be on the scale of Nazi Germans campaign. For the end result would of been millions dying and not only the Africans being transported but also those living in Africa.

My comments were meant to portray to the now banned thread owner and any that agreed with him that such acts as he described it would of amounted to Genocide and the results would of been of the same scale as Nazi holocaust. There would not of been any gas chambers but the end result been the same.
 
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So OTL really does represent the logistic limit for moving ex-slaves to Liberia.

Does it?

How was it done OTL? Is it possible that a more systematic campaign - even one doomed to fail - of forcing people to go would have produced a higher result than OTL?

If such was undertaken - with more ships laid on, more money thrown at it etc how many more would have been forced to leave? What's the max amount of time this could have been sustained and what sort of return rate would it have had? Given the logistics of the time what *could* have been done if the willpower had been there from the Southerners with the cash and power to do it?

I suspect many ex-slaves would have migrated West and North or to the West Indies to escape such a purge campaign and it would have stopped once economic impact started.
 
Does it?

I suspect many ex-slaves would have migrated West and North or to the West Indies to escape such a purge campaign and it would have stopped once economic impact started.

Lincoln may have talked about re-locating ex-slaves, but had he lived, he would have almost certainly have changed his mind some. The new priority might be to give as many as practical ex-slaves a better chance than they would get with the exploitive sharecropping arrangement that emerged in OTL. It could mean more to Liberia or the West Indies. It could mean more to the less-settled upper Midwest, creating more towns like Nicodemus, Kansas. Lincoln may have run for a third term, and in that term, the transcontinental railroad would have opened, opening a new avenue for settlement and opportunity. A downside is that some of these settlers would have been victimized by the Dust Bowl and future generations would be forced to migrate again. It is well-known that parts of Nebraska and the Dakotas were over-settled to the point that marginal land only produced good yields in two of five years.
 
How much was President Lincoln surrounded and advised by folks who wanted the black people gone/removed?

Do we know of any concrete feasibility studies done on it, or was it obvious common sense it would be impossible to move that many folks?
 
How much was President Lincoln surrounded and advised by folks who wanted the black people gone/removed?

Do we know of any concrete feasibility studies done on it, or was it obvious common sense it would be impossible to move that many folks?
The issue of racism can not be forgotten. The notion of "separate but equal" made some sense c.1890 because blacks could travel on segregated railroads (though separate was not equal) and few people anywhere had the spoils of modernization (electricity, indoor plumbing, modern heating, running water). If you look at movies like the Green Book and other accounts of travel problems during Jim Crow by automobile, you can see how persistent the problem was. Sadly enough, racism persists today. An issue to remember that a surviving Lincoln would have had almost a full term ahead of him in April, 1865. In this time line, Andrew Johnson is obscure and nearly forgotten in history.
 
How much was President Lincoln surrounded and advised by folks who wanted the black people gone/removed?

Do we know of any concrete feasibility studies done on it, or was it obvious common sense it would be impossible to move that many folks?

By 1865 it has to be too late to do this, even if Lincoln wants to. Most black people are now free, so how is he going to capture them? Fight a guerilla war against ex-slaves? Society is very racist in this era (north and south) but the country is also exhausted by a horrific civil war. Do Americans want to risk even more bloodshed and have a race war erupt?
 

SpookyBoy

Banned
Basically Liberia being settler colony, just with African-Americans.

The initial issue would be how to motivate Blacks to move there, but once a critical mass has been achieved, there will be one hell of a transplanted colony.

I think it would also seriously enlarge Liberia at the expenses of neighboring African natives. Sure, some American Africans would try to actually assimilate to their "ancestral people", but most of them would actually congregate with another American Africans and sooner than later, they would form separate society due to human tendency of Tribalism.

Thus this ATL Liberia might ironically end up seen as outsider/invader nation by Native Africans, even when they both are technically Black. Liberia having more African Americans will likely to result in Liberia end up being admitted as another state on par with Hawaii instead of fully independent.
I'm going to have to be the one to point out that this is actually what happened during Liberia's early history largely

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia#Early_colonization

The Americo-Liberian settlers did not relate well to the indigenous peoples they encountered, especially those in communities of the more isolated "bush", They knew nothing of their cultures, languages, or animist religion. Encounters with tribal Africans in the bush often developed as violent confrontations. The colonial settlements were raided by the Kru and Grebo from their inland chiefdoms. Because of feeling set apart and superior by their culture and education to the indigenous peoples, the Americo-Liberians developed as an elite minority that held on to political power. It excluded the indigenous tribesmen from birthright citizenship in their own lands until 1904, in a parallel of the United States' treatment of Native Americans.[10] Because of ethnocentrism and the cultural gap, the Americo-Liberians envisioned creating a western-style state to which the tribesmen should assimilate. They promoted religious organizations to set up missions and schools to educate the indigenous peoples.

Liberia never even had a president who wasn't of Americo descent until Samuel Doe in 1980.
 
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Lusitania

Donor
I'm going to have to be the one to point out that this is actually what happened during Liberia's early history largely

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia#Early_colonization
And people think that sending over 10,000 or 100,000 would be good. Maybe shoot for 1 million. But better yet send over the whole 4 million.

By the way what people think Britain and France and other Europesn countries with colonies in Aftica not object and say stop and US not do they send their navy’s to intercept?

This thread only appeal is for the select few who hate those not of their group and think it would of been great if the Americans in 19th century had done this. Glad the guy who started this thread been put out to pasture.
 
And people think that sending over 10,000 or 100,000 would be good. Maybe shoot for 1 million. But better yet send over the whole 4 million.

By the way what people think Britain and France and other Europesn countries with colonies in Aftica not object and say stop and US not do they send their navy’s to intercept?

This thread only appeal is for the select few who hate those not of their group and think it would of been great if the Americans in 19th century had done this. Glad the guy who started this thread been put out to pasture.
The bold words say it all. When I saw the thread, I mentioned a possibility of one million. That was argued down and I said maybe 100,000. Also too many. OK, resettlement options. But I also mentioned sustainability problems in the western Midwest and high plains. Homestead in the wrong place and you have an earlier Dust Bowl, in ATL blamed on people over their race.

The fact is, rounding up and relocating some 4 million people based on race is a page out of Hitler's playbook. Lincoln would have seen the potential problems and changed his position. There are ways to discuss programs to re-settle a limited number of freed slaves to their benefit, but the OP does not lead to those more humanitarian options. And the OP originator had more annoyingly bad threads before being banned.

There is another thread in this section about the 1868 elections if Lincoln had lived. The discussion there can be far more intelligent than that started in this OP.
 
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And people think that sending over 10,000 or 100,000 would be good. Maybe shoot for 1 million. But better yet send over the whole 4 million.

By the way what people think Britain and France and other Europesn countries with colonies in Aftica not object and say stop and US not do they send their navy’s to intercept?

This thread only appeal is for the select few who hate those not of their group and think it would of been great if the Americans in 19th century had done this. Glad the guy who started this thread been put out to pasture.

I mean look at all the Nordic Vinland/WI Confederates Won threads on this site, it's very clear the undercurrent of many topics is one that centers Europeans over everyone else.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I mean look at all the Nordic Vinland/WI Confederates Won threads on this site, it's very clear the undercurrent of many topics is one that centers Europeans over everyone else.
My whole objection was not that America provided means for those who wanted to return to Africa (Liberia) but the premise forcibly return ALL African Americans 4million + to Liberia. First they not from Liberia only small % are descendants of those who cane from there. Secondly that speaks of racism and the outcome even if spread out over some 20 years be barbaric and considered today genocide. There no way that Africa handle that many people. But must important we selecting people based on color and forcing them to go at gun point.

Somebody tell me they in favor of that.
 
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