Lighter Panther

What if the MAN Panther tank adopted in OTL was adopted at its original 35 tons instead of bloating to about 45 tons? My guess is that it is much more reliable, possibly much cheaper and maybe battle ready months sooner.

I believe with proper foresight (sloped armor was not unknown, and a much bigger gun was needed for Matildas as well as British and Russian types that would likely come after Matildas), it could have been ready for production at the start of 1941. How does that effect things?
 
The main reason it was adopted was the German experience with the T-34, so it really isn't reasonable to have it adopted prior to 1942; it will be seen as unnecessary.

The design was intended to one-up the T-34. To do that it needed a better gun, which required a larger turret, which required a larger chassis, which drove up the weight, which required a bigger engine, which drove up the weight, and so on. The 45 tons it ended up at was not unreasonable. Once the bugs were worked out it became a fine tank.

Lessening the weight means lessening its capabilities in some ways, without increasing its reliability significantly. For the record reliability was always a problem for German AFVs regardless of type; the Pz V, once it got past its initial problems, was no different than other German AFVs in that respect.
 

Kissinger

Banned
The main reason it was adopted was the German experience with the T-34, so it really isn't reasonable to have it adopted prior to 1942; it will be seen as unnecessary.

The design was intended to one-up the T-34. To do that it needed a better gun, which required a larger turret, which required a larger chassis, which drove up the weight, which required a bigger engine, which drove up the weight, and so on. The 45 tons it ended up at was not unreasonable. Once the bugs were worked out it became a fine tank.

Lessening the weight means lessening its capabilities in some ways, without increasing its reliability significantly. For the record reliability was always a problem for German AFVs regardless of type; the Pz V, once it got past its initial problems, was no different than other German AFVs in that respect.
My favorite WW2 tank, it could be lighter but as pointed out it was built with the T-34 in mind. Don't forget there were designs for heavier tank from as early as 39 and Hitler scrapped them. To make a lighter tank you have to convince the Germans that a bigger gun is needed
 
Don't forget there were designs for heavier tank from as early as 39 and Hitler scrapped them.

Didn't those plans eventually evolve into Tiger?

What if the MAN Panther tank adopted in OTL was adopted at its original 35 tons instead of bloating to about 45 tons? My guess is that it is much more reliable, possibly much cheaper and maybe battle ready months sooner.

I am not sure if it would be cheaper. Panther was already cost effective and cheap when compared to any other German design. I do not know if it could be just as optmized if it was lighter, and it would certainly affect its performance. Also it would have much smaller evolution potential; technically in Aus F verosion it was on its way to being propably first MBT - hard to achieve with 35 ton tank
 
What would have been lost?

I've never seen an image of the original weight Panther. Would it have had as large and capable a frame with less demands on it? That would seem to allow comparable long term evolution.

I've read that some of the components like the transmission had problems because of the increased weight.

Can anyone shed some light on these things?
 
30.02

The Germans were aware that their medium tank was a bit too light at 22tons, and had a project for a tank in the low30s around since before the war. In the German name systhem, this were the VK30.01 projects. Since this were old fashioned (nearly vertical sides, etc) when the T34 qualities were fully apreciated the germans decided to go for a next generation 30 ton tan, leading to the 30.02 requeriment. This ended producing two contenders, the DB very T34 like one and the Panther. Once the Panther was nearly finalized it was decided to increse the tickness of the armour, and that, along with the usual weight creep that most weapons experience, led to an overweight tank.
If the germans had decided to stay with the 30.01 design (something I started a thread about a few months ago) they would have ended, a few upgrades later, with something like the Comet. The Panther with the original armour would have been more reliable "off the box" but wouldn't have the imunity the OTL panther had regarding the russian 76,2mm and US/Brit 75mm at most combat ranges. In other words, the heavier ones broke down a lot, the lighter ones would have been killed a lot.
 
The Whermarcht were miracle workers when it came to fixing tanks so the reliability issues were less important than say being able to actually fight a T34. After the initial combat debut the Panthers quickly improved to be as reliable as any other front line tank that the Germans were building at the time. A smaller tank would still break down just as much if it was thrown into a major offensive with no time to solve the teething issues, The panther was as good as it could realisticly be expected to be.
 
My favorite WW2 tank, it could be lighter but as pointed out it was built with the T-34 in mind. Don't forget there were designs for heavier tank from as early as 39 and Hitler scrapped them. To make a lighter tank you have to convince the Germans that a bigger gun is needed

Bollocks. A bigger gun requires a heavier tank, not a lighter one. You need more space in the turret for the larger breech, more space for ammo stowage, and a larger mass and stronger suspension to handle the heavier recoil. As I said above, bigger gun means bigger turret means bigger chassis means heavier tank. To make the tank lighter requires either a smaller gun, which makes it less effective, or less armor, which makes it more vulnerable, or both.

I'm not saying the Panther was perfect; nothing man-made is. But it was a very good design as it was and trying to make it lighter would make it worse, not better.

Now, if you want a light and effective vehicle, you want a Hetzer. Revamp all your Pz 38t and Pz 35t and Pz II chassis into small fully armored Jagdpanzers sporting 75L48 or Russian 76.2 guns and you've got something cheap and very effective, and you have thousands of them. That's what the Wehrmacht really needs.
 
Ys, but that wouldn't fulfill certain "Freudian" needs.:cool:

True, but it buys them time; time to work the kinks out of the Panthers and Tigers, or to do any of half a hundred other things which never quite got finished before the clock ran out.
 
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