Lever action rifles in WW1

I have a Springfield in the safe right now and have used a Winchester 1895. The Springfield is a very nice weapon (as is anything built on the 1898 Mauser platform, my favorite is the CZ-24), solid, very reliable, and it would make one hell of a nice club (or a pike with an 18" bayonet attached). The M1895 is also a sweet shooter, but it is less "solid" than the M1903, at least in the civilian version.

I hate you with the burning passion of a million exploding suns at the moment.
 
30/40 Krag (e.g. .30 cal Government).

It wasn't mine, it was a hunting buddy's favorite deer rifle.

The krag round is somewhat heavier, and has a much higher muzzle velocity... probably overkill for ww1... 30-30 would seem to be more condusive to battle in the trenchs (you don't need a round accurate out to 1000 yards if your fighting at 1/10 that range)

how would you compare the recoil/maneuverability of that weapon to the springfield
 

CalBear

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The krag round is somewhat heavier, and has a much higher muzzle velocity... probably overkill for ww1... 30-30 would seem to be more condusive to battle in the trenchs (you don't need a round accurate out to 1000 yards if your fighting at 1/10 that range)

how would you compare the recoil/maneuverability of that weapon to the springfield


I have a 30-30, and its a pretty handy rifle, nice close country gun. The Springfield is heavier (of course a military lever action would be heavier too since it would have a full length stock & bayonet lug) and is quite a bit longer.

The cartridge is the big difference. A 30.06 put down just about whatever it hits, there isn't a Game animal in the Western Hemisphere that can't be taken with a '06 and the right bullet (although I will be taking that .300 Win Mag for a bear hunt, thank you very much). A 30-30 is nice deer round, but deer are generally fairly small critters 'round here, normally not much over 150-200 pounds on the hoof (Big males are REALLY rare) and I wouldn't dream of using it on anything that was even a little dangerous.
 

CalBear

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It would be a better time to explain why you don't have a No. 4 Mk2 to go with them. :mad:

Actually I'm looking for one. The last couple I came across were too beat up.

After the Enfield, next on the list is an original 30-40 Krag.
 
Actually I'm looking for one. The last couple I came across were too beat up.

What happened to that Australian company making new 7.62 NATO versions? Or perhaps something from Isherpore?

After the Enfield, next on the list is an original 30-40 Krag.

The side mounted magazine thing?

You should go for a Pattern 17 Enfield or a Swedish Mauser instead, or maybe an AR10.
 

NothingNow

Banned
The Russians modified their winchesters to be box magazine fed, instead of the akward to reload tubular magazine style we normally associate with the type... sort of a poor mans semi automatic BAR (i used to have a picture of one of these weapons but unfortunately can't find it, but if I recall correctly it had a 8 round mag of 30-30)
Actually, the Winchester M1895 was designed around Spitzer type ammunition, so it has the Box Magazine, (which is absolutely necessary for Spitzer rounds, as they can either set others off, or render them inert in a tubular barrel.
win95-0.jpg


would a box magazine eliminate the feeding/extraction problems? or at least reduce them enough to make the weapon more attractive vis a vis bolt actions... shorter, lighter weight and intermediateish cartridge I imagine would make it better in trench fighting?
Yeah, it's a much better action and obviously more compact. But, thanks to the action it doesn't work as well prone, and doesn't have as good a rate of fire as can be sustained with a bolt action.

By the way, here's one of the Russian contract M1895s, with a Stripper Clip.
Winchester95russian.jpg
 
Isn't this how Winchester's Model 1897 became known as the " trench gun"?

This was a 12 gauge shotgun. It had a bayonet attachment to it to make it even more useful. Nothing like like it with a duck bill on the end to flatten and widen the pattern in close quarters fighting.

The Russians developed a 12 gauge based on the AK47 action for fully automatic use that IIRC is called a Saiga
 
weren't lever action rifles considered to be obsolete for combat by the time of the Spanish-American War? I think I remember reading someplace that the US went out and bought those Krag rifles because of it...
 
weren't lever action rifles considered to be obsolete for combat by the time of the Spanish-American War? I think I remember reading someplace that the US went out and bought those Krag rifles because of it...

The US Army experimented with a military lever actions for about 20-25 years after the Civil War, as not everyone in the Ordinance Department was convinced that a repeater would cause soldiers to get lazy & waste ammo with half-aimed shots (a big reason why the Army adopted the Krag in 1891 was that it had a slow-loading magazine arrangement that was though to encourage soldiers to treat the weapon as a single-shot piece with a reserve of cartridges), but all the experiments failed as nobody at the time was able build a lever action sturdy enough to reliably handle the service rifle cartridges of the era, such as the .45-70 on a consistent basis. (I think the Winchester 1895 was the first lever action that could take a full-power service cartridge, & with the lever-actions available commercially today, other than the .30-30, all the other chamberings I've heard of are pistol cartridges or .22s) When the US Army finally decided to replace the old M1872 trapdoor Springfield around 1890 & was able to get the money to do so, magazine-fed bolt actions were the big thing in the military arms market (some of the other entries in the competition that led to the adoption of the Krag were weapons based on the Lee-Metford, Mauser, & Mosin-Nagant actions.)
 
The 1903 Springfield is a great rifle to shoot I have 4 here at the house and one of them is the 1903 star version set up a sniper rifle my father brought back from WWII .
 
I have a 30-30, and its a pretty handy rifle, nice close country gun. The Springfield is heavier (of course a military lever action would be heavier too since it would have a full length stock & bayonet lug) and is quite a bit longer.

The cartridge is the big difference. A 30.06 put down just about whatever it hits, there isn't a Game animal in the Western Hemisphere that can't be taken with a '06 and the right bullet (although I will be taking that .300 Win Mag for a bear hunt, thank you very much). A 30-30 is nice deer round, but deer are generally fairly small critters 'round here, normally not much over 150-200 pounds on the hoof (Big males are REALLY rare) and I wouldn't dream of using it on anything that was even a little dangerous.

If they lengthened the stock of the winchester and put a bayonet attachment on it, it would defeat the purpose of using the thing... at that point it would be just as big and heavy as the springfield; and you might as well go the full distance and chamber it in 45-70 or 30-06...then all the advantages go to the bolt action

the british and american military where rather stubborn about this during that time period... bayonet fighting skills aren't particularly useful when you are up against and enemy with machine guns integrated at the company level and below (after 1914)

Rommel seems to be the only fellow who was a junior officer in that war (and became a general officer in the next) who actually bayoneted somebody... it didn't work out well for him either, he was so engrossed in bayoneting these couple of french fellows that he didn't see another squad move up on his flank, and their riflemen draw a bead on him and shoot him through the leg with a lebel at 50 yards

He was damn lucky (by ww1 standards) that they didn't have to amputate the leg
 
Guess now would be a bad time to mention the Garand and SMLE Mk III that are nestled next to the Springfield huh?


:p

The 1903 Springfield is a great rifle to shoot I have 4 here at the house and one of them is the 1903 star version set up a sniper rifle my father brought back from WWII .


Well, now would certainly be a bad time to list your home address and when you'll be out of town next unless you have a VERY good security system. :)
 

Markus

Banned
Bayonets don't run out of ammunition.

I was thinking about: "There won´t be much left to shoot at after firing off six loads of buckshot." Also fixed bayonets were unwieldy in a trench. They were cut off and turned into knifes. Wooden clubs and folding spades were also popular weapons for close combat.

But now I can see the point of a bayonet. ;)
 
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