Let's say the Crusader states do survive to the modern day....

[Cuāuhtemōc]

What language(s) do you think that the denizens of the Crusader states in the Levant would speak? Something based off French? A highly Romanized Arabic with some Aramaic and Greek influence? Something based off Italian?

And what would the culture be like?

 

[RGB]

How many came as colonists, what happened to the locals, and how long are they staying for?

The answers might depend on the parameters. I also suggest contacting Catalina about this, he's pretty good with medieval population estimates.

 

[Baconheimer]

Probably a heavily arabized, Franco-German, of course with a P.O.D. that early, the Byzantines could still be about,.

 

[Dan1988]

Probably a heavily arabized, Franco-German, of course with a P.O.D. that early, the Byzantines could still be about,.

In addition, Greek, Arabic, Armenian, and Syriac would also still be spoken. If the Sephardim are expelled as per OTL from Iberia, Spanish (albeit in its Judeo-Spanish form) would also be added to the list. Coptic, however, would be long dead by then, as most of its speakers in Egypt had shifted already to Arabic and maintained Coptic only as a liturgical language.

 

[Elfwine]

In addition, Greek, Arabic, Armenian, and Syriac would also still be spoken. If the Sephardim are expelled as per OTL from Iberia, Spanish (albeit in its Judeo-Spanish form) would also be added to the list. Coptic, however, would be long dead by then, as most of its speakers in Egypt had shifted already to Arabic and maintained Coptic only as a liturgical language.

Why would they come to/be welcome within surviving Frankish states?

 

[Dan1988]

Why would they come to/be welcome within surviving Frankish states?

Because, once one gets down to the nuts and bolts, the Crusaders have to be pragmatic if they want to survive. When it comes down to Christianity itself, the fact that Catholicism was the state church did not prevent the Orthodox Christianities from flourishing - and that was OTL. In OTL, too, a good portion of the Sephardim that were expelled settled down in Palestine in OTL, though IIRC it was either in what is now northern Israel or along the coastal areas. Plus, they never really constituted a large segment of the population that part of the Ottoman Empire - and wasn't really a major Jewish community as compared with, say, Thessaloniki or Istanbul. If they arrive to the Crusader states in TTL, I'd rather expect the same thing as per OTL. Granted, the Crusaders would see to it that the Jews would be forbidden to live in Jerusalem apart from visiting around Tisha b'Av (which was largely the standard policy amongst the Byzantines in OTL), and the Jews would be second-class citizens. However, IIRC, compared with the rest of medieval Europe the Crusaders were much more loose and feudalism (as such) really didn't take hold (what did happen was a variation of the seigneural system as applied by the French to their Canadian colonies, but much looser and derived from then-current Islamic practice), plus - from what I remember from researching for a similar TL project that never got off the ground - the Crusaders were, to a degree, friendly to the Italian merchants that bankrolled the whole thing. So, it's definitely possible for the Sephardim to find a niche within the Crusader states and might have more opportunity in the Crusader states (where their skills from being in Iberia would be in high demand in the Levant) then what they had in medieval Europe.

Of course, that's just my view - which might be a tad idealistic. But I don't see anything that would suggest it not be the case.

 

[Elfwine]

Because, once one gets down to the nuts and bolts, the Crusaders have to be pragmatic if they want to survive. When it comes down to Christianity itself, the fact that Catholicism was the state church did not prevent the Orthodox Christianities from flourishing - and that was OTL.

Which accepting in foreign Jews may or may not help with.

In OTL, too, a good portion of the Sephardim that were expelled settled down in Palestine in OTL, though IIRC it was either in what is now northern Israel or along the coastal areas. Plus, they never really constituted a large segment of the population that part of the Ottoman Empire - and wasn't really a major Jewish community as compared with, say, Thessaloniki or Istanbul. If they arrive to the Crusader states in TTL, I'd rather expect the same thing as per OTL.

Despite circumstances (in the Levant) being so different that it doesn't make sense?

Granted, the Crusaders would see to it that the Jews would be forbidden to live in Jerusalem apart from visiting around Tisha b'Av (which was largely the standard policy amongst the Byzantines in OTL), and the Jews would be second-class citizens. However, IIRC, compared with the rest of medieval Europe the Crusaders were much more loose and feudalism (as such) really didn't take hold (what did happen was a variation of the seigneural system as applied by the French to their Canadian colonies, but much looser and derived from then-current Islamic practice), plus - from what I remember from researching for a similar TL project that never got off the ground - the Crusaders were, to a degree, friendly to the Italian merchants that bankrolled the whole thing. So, it's definitely possible for the Sephardim to find a niche within the Crusader states and might have more opportunity in the Crusader states (where their skills from being in Iberia would be in high demand in the Levant) then what they had in medieval Europe.

I don't see how the sometimes friendly relations to the Italian city-states is going to encourage open-mindedness to a minority that they have no especially good reason to recognize that sheer survival depends on good politics.

Of course, that's just my view - which might be a tad idealistic. But I don't see anything that would suggest it not be the case.

Other than the whole "medieval and early modern European Christian attitude towards the Jews"?

That the Franks would learn to practice realpolitick among their Muslim neighbors is one thing, that they would have a tolerable rule over the native Christians and Muslims is another thing, but neither is going to necessarily mean an attitude of welcoming foreign nonLatins - if anything, a surviving Crusader states probably have a larger-than-OTL Latin population (the 1102 Crusade POD Riain has mentioned) and less interest in accepting these Jews.

I don't want to say its impossible, but given the attitudes we need to work with, treating it as like a Christian form of the OTL situation is apples and oranges.

 

[Zuvarq]

I can see Jews being tolerated, and if it happens during the Spanish expulsion of the Sephardic Jews then a small amount of them could even arrive in the Kingdom of Jerusalem. But as soon as anything goes wrong, or as soon as some zealous king comes to the throne, guess what group of people gets blamed when something bad happens.

EDIT: I wonder if after the fall of Granada or whatever the TTL last Iberian sultanate is, Spanish adventurers might come to the Kingdom of Jerusalem and safeguard it from attack in a Varangian Guard or Turcopole-like way.

 

[HistorianofAlt]

Actually the permanent residents of Outreimer, by this I mean crusaders who stayed in the holy land and their decedents, were rather pragmatic. Once the religious high of completing your oath was over, the crusaders had to deal with realities of ruling a foreign population, potential enemies on most sides, their backs to the sea, and possible aid months or years away. Later crusaders had quite the culture shock when they went over to Outreimer. Of course, there is the fact that most crusaders went back home after reaching Jerusalem which left the kingdom in desperate need of soldiers and thus the continuing crusades being called. Early political instablity among the crusader states also caused problems.

Now, to get the language lets consider the following scenario. Suppose Urban changes the call slightly in that the crusaders are to free and insure the continual defense of Jerusalem. This way, crusaders have to stay in the kingdom. Naturally, this will change who is going and they're probably going to bring they're families with them. Now assuming that everything plays out roughly historically, we can end with the post first crusader states having 20,000 fighting men and their families. I chose this number based on the peasant's crusade, the noble crusade, and the crusade of 1101 (when the people who had made the crusading pledge but had not gone earlier went on crusade). This should give the states enough manpower to defend themselves considering the state of the region baring a major military disaster. Given where the preaching for the crusade was directed in OTL, we can assume that the most of these settlers will be speaking old french and the Italian dialect popular in Sicily.

Given the seinario outlined above, I think Outreimer's language will follow a similar path as English did. By this I mean that the native Arabic will be altered by the influx of French and Italian until it is transformed into a new language.

 

[MNP]

Always assuming there is a Spain. Also if the Crusader states have been around for some additional centuries it's possible that the population is enough for the Crusader states to not have to be entirely pragmatic in this regard.

For language I think you have to look at something like Mozarabic's relationship with Old Castillian. Different enough to be different, but clearly in the same continuum linguistically.

 

[Elfwine]

Actually the permanent residents of Outreimer, by this I mean crusaders who stayed in the holy land and their decedents, were rather pragmatic. Once the religious high of completing your oath was over, the crusaders had to deal with realities of ruling a foreign population, potential enemies on most sides, their backs to the sea, and possible aid months or years away. Later crusaders had quite the culture shock when they went over to Outreimer. Of course, there is the fact that most crusaders went back home after reaching Jerusalem which left the kingdom in desperate need of soldiers and thus the continuing crusades being called. Early political instablity among the crusader states also caused problems.

The problem is that the kind of pragmatism that sees, for instance, largely "Meh." acceptance and the kind of attitude that would welcome

Now, to get the language lets consider the following scenario. Suppose Urban changes the call slightly in that the crusaders are to free and insure the continual defense of Jerusalem.

Except that this would not be the same as historically, or anything like historically - instead of being basically a pilgrimage with a fight at the end, it's . . . entirely different.

This way, crusaders have to stay in the kingdom. Naturally, this will change who is going and they're probably going to bring they're families with them. Now assuming that everything plays out roughly historically, we can end with the post first crusader states having 20,000 fighting men and their families.

I chose this number based on the peasant's crusade, the noble crusade, and the crusade of 1101 (when the people who had made the crusading pledge but had not gone earlier went on crusade). This should give the states enough manpower to defend themselves considering the state of the region baring a major military disaster. Given where the preaching for the crusade was directed in OTL, we can assume that the most of these settlers will be speaking old french and the Italian dialect popular in Sicily.

20,000 fighting men with their families.

How?

OTL, according to The Crusades by Jonathan Riley Smith, the casualties of the First Crusade are staggering: "The most recent estimate of mortalties concludes that just under 40 per cent of the armsbearers died. The fatalities among the poor must have been much higher."

And women and children are going to be vulnerable.

All totaled around "possibly 30,000 men and women" was at the siege of Antioch at the start, but you can guess how many survived.

 

[Riain]

The survival of the Crusader states will require mutiple PoDs, the first being the Crusade of 1101 both opening up the land route across Anatolia and bringing more colonists to provide a class of Poulains in future generations. The second, which would probably flow from the first, is the survivial of Byzantium, as I think Outremer and Byzantium's fortunes are closely linked.

The Franks of Outremer quickly adopted local clothes and habits out of necessity so much of their culture would quickly become oriental so to
speak. I think they would still speak some sort of bastardised French.

 

[Elfwine]

The survival of the Crusader states will require mutiple PoDs, the first being the Crusade of 1101 both opening up the land route across Anatolia and bringing more colonists to provide a class of Poulains in future generations. The second, which would probably flow from the first, is the survivial of Byzantium, as I think Outremer and Byzantium's fortunes are closely linked.

The Franks of Outremer quickly adopted local clothes and habits out of necessity so much of their culture would quickly become oriental so to
speak. I think they would still speak some sort of bastardised French.

A POD that gets rid of the Fourth Crusade (as it was OTL) would probably be good - not just for Byzantium but because you don't want the diversion of energies and money and men that went OTL - just enough to hurt the Crusader States, not enough to save the Latin principalities .

 

[Riain]

I'm a big believer in time solving problems requiring diverse PoDs. For example if the Crusade of 1101 captured Ancyra and even Konya and the Byz garrison these cities, over the course of time people will populate these areas and return them to prosperity. Similarly if given enough time the Poulain class will enlarge and the local Christians could become more formidable and therefore recruits for the Frankish army.

 

[Elfwine]

I'm a big believer in time solving problems requiring diverse PoDs. For example if the Crusade of 1101 captured Ancyra and even Konya and the Byz garrison these cities, over the course of time people will populate these areas and return them to prosperity. Similarly if given enough time the Poulain class will enlarge and the local Christians could become more formidable and therefore recruits for the Frankish army.

Yeah. I think that after a while - sometime after the Second Crusade at worst, after Hattin most likely, and definitely after La Forbie - the Crusaders won't have "enough time", though.

 

[HistorianofAlt]

OTL, according to The Crusades by Jonathan Riley Smith, the casualties of the First Crusade are staggering: "The most recent estimate of mortalties concludes that just under 40 per cent of the armsbearers died. The fatalities among the poor must have been much higher."

And women and children are going to be vulnerable.

All totaled around "possibly 30,000 men and women" was at the siege of Antioch at the start, but you can guess how many survived.

The number I suggested was a guess based off of the number of people involved throughout the entire First Crusade who were crusaders. The People's Crusade featured roughly 40,000 crusaders who were almost completely wiped out, the Nobles crusade had roughly 35,000 crusaders, I can't find a number of the crusaders for the Crusade of 1101 at the moment. However, I think it's reasonable to assume it had high numbers given the number of leaders involved.

 

[Baconheimer]

Cant you just see a preist with a Cross in one hand and an M15 in the other patrolling the streets with Hospitalliers with Assualt Rifles.

 

[Elfwine]

The number I suggested was a guess based off of the number of people involved throughout the entire First Crusade who were crusaders. The People's Crusade featured roughly 40,000 crusaders who were almost completely wiped out, the Nobles crusade had roughly 35,000 crusaders, I can't find a number of the crusaders for the Crusade of 1101 at the moment. However, I think it's reasonable to assume it had high numbers given the number of leaders involved.

The problem is all of those people surviving is highly unlikely. Even if you don't have the People's Crusade or the 1101 Crusade wiped out, they will suffer losses, and I don't think you can treat this as "Those three crusades put together" in terms of total numbers in the first place - people are going to find the idea of a crusade framed around "go to Jerusalem and stay there" a lot less appealing, especially the people who made up the OTL second wave (or third, if you count the NC as second).

Baconheimer: No. Even ignoring butterflies on M15s.

I'm trying to put aside my skepticism on the whole concept of the Crusader states surviving, but the only way I can do that is based on an extremely judicious policy by the Principality of Antioch or the like (Jerusalem is rather too vulnerable).

 

[Baconheimer]

The problem is all of those people surviving is highly unlikely. Even if you don't have the People's Crusade or the 1101 Crusade wiped out, they will suffer losses, and I don't think you can treat this as "Those three crusades put together" in terms of total numbers in the first place - people are going to find the idea of a crusade framed around "go to Jerusalem and stay there" a lot less appealing, especially the people who made up the OTL second wave (or third, if you count the NC as second).

Baconheimer: No. Even ignoring butterflies on M15s.

I'm trying to put aside my skepticism on the whole concept of the Crusader states surviving, but the only way I can do that is based on an extremely judicious policy by the Principality of Antioch or the like (Jerusalem is rather too vulnerable).

I know, just the idea is rather interesting.

 

[el t]

Crusader States

What language(s) do you think that the denizens of the Crusader states in the Levant would speak? Something based off French? A highly Romanized Arabic with some Aramaic and Greek influence? Something based off Italian?

And what would the culture be like?

Does this include the Crusader states in Greece, including the Kingdom of Cyprus? Or just the states in Syria-Palestine?