Let Us Die To Make Men Free: Garibaldi's America
- Thread starter DirtyCommie
- Start date
Yay, criticism (and questions)! Let's do this.
Garibaldi was quite a good commander IOTL, but had never commanded anything as large as the Army of the *Potomac. So this is quite a new arena to him. However, what he really brings to the union is the kind of decisiveness that the US certainly did not have at the time. Compared to McClellan's metaphorical station wagon, Garibaldi is a Lamborghini.
Do not worry, he will certainly have some failures. Indeed, this very victory will lead to great overconfidence among the AoNeV and Garibaldi especially. And with a new commander in charge of the Army of Northern Virginia, we'll see a better Confederate showing in Virginia.
Actually, Garibaldi demanded it IOTL, but obviously did not receive. Here, he's a bit less demanding.
I'll see what I can do!
Sorry about that. I like Fremont, personally. As for Nathaniel Lyon, well, you know, he died. Garibaldi's appointment doesn't have enough time to change that.
No doubt!
Don't worry, guys, I'll have more responses soon!
Considering Johnston was a famed bullet magnet, it isn't hard to kill him.
Also I know next to nothing about Garibaldi as a commander, but I presume he's quite good?
And how long until the average American soldier calls Garibaldi, Gary the Baldy?
Garibaldi was quite a good commander IOTL, but had never commanded anything as large as the Army of the *Potomac. So this is quite a new arena to him. However, what he really brings to the union is the kind of decisiveness that the US certainly did not have at the time. Compared to McClellan's metaphorical station wagon, Garibaldi is a Lamborghini.
Do not worry, he will certainly have some failures. Indeed, this very victory will lead to great overconfidence among the AoNeV and Garibaldi especially. And with a new commander in charge of the Army of Northern Virginia, we'll see a better Confederate showing in Virginia.
Actually, Garibaldi demanded it IOTL, but obviously did not receive. Here, he's a bit less demanding.
I'll see what I can do!
Sorry about that. I like Fremont, personally. As for Nathaniel Lyon, well, you know, he died. Garibaldi's appointment doesn't have enough time to change that.
No doubt!
Don't worry, guys, I'll have more responses soon!
That's good. Very good. Because if he was going to be this infalliable guy, i would have stopped reading. Hell, even in OTL he would have had to have moments of doubt and setbacks. I know that most Civil War commanders did. From Grant's "drinking", to Shermans "madness" and even McClellans slows. Hell, even though Johnston is dead, he had his "refusing to attacks".
Yeah, see, i know that, but you are not going to give the chief military position to a foreigner like it. It deliberately enforces to position that no American can look after the military.
I'll see what I can do!
and by this i mean, in any Civil War TL, seeing McClellan in a different position would be awesome.
Ah! So Lyon died before Garibaldi arrived? is that my understanding?
Pity.
Anything that manages to screw over the Confederacy and wank Garibaldi's already considerable reputation is a boon in my book!
Can't wait to see what the long term effects will be! Keep up the good work!
Can't wait to see what the long term effects will be! Keep up the good work!
Stolengood
Banned
Can't we just raise him from the dead?
I mean... isn't it possible that a slight nine-days' butterfly flap could keep Lyon alive via Garibaldi's acceptance slightly changing how the early events play out?
and he would be worth so much more than Fremont.Can't we just raise him from the dead?
I mean... isn't it possible that a slight nine-days' butterfly flap could keep Lyon alive via Garibaldi's acceptance slightly changing how the early events play out?
TFSmith121
Banned
Entertaining as all get-out, but...
Entertaining as all get-out, but...no.
1) Fremont's martial law proclamation in St. Louis was Aug. 30; Polk's invasion of Kentucky was Sept. 3. Mill Springs was not until January. Fremont withdraws the proclamation or off he goes, no matter how much Jessie complains.
2) Volunteers did not get general officer commissions in 1861-62 "just because"...they got them because a) they could raise troops, or b) they had proven themselves as lower ranks: case in point, Franz Sigel, who got a full rank major generalcy (USV, not RA) in March, 1862, and because he had demonstrated his abilities as a recruiter (I fights mitt Sigel) and (somewhat) as a brigadier in 1861-62, notably at Pea Ridge. Sigel had been a US resident since 1852, as well, and he was the first emigrant to get two stars that I see on the lists...
Garibaldi, if he had come to the US, might have received a major general's (USV) commission as a volunteer, given his reputation, AND if he could actually raise any troops...if so, he might have gotten an "Latin" division, akin to Blenker's "German" division. Again, what Seward offered or alluded to in his July letter to Sandford was just that, a MG's commission in "the army of the United States" (which is an interesting choise of words), with no detail beyond that. It could have been brevet USV, actually, with a full rank BG USV. Again, there would be a quid pro quo; there always was...
As an example, it is worth noting that Charles Frederick Havelock, younger brother of Henry, distinguished record in the British army, and a MG in the Ottoman army, came to the US about the same time as a volunteer and never even got a commission, of any type. Paul Cluseret got a colonel's commission, but didn't get a BG until after Cross Keys, and that was based on his record on active service.
The other problem with Garibaldi is whatever recruits his reputation as a revolutionary may bring, his fights with the Church are not exactly going to bring Catholics into the recruiting offices...be better off offering Archbishop Hughes a commission, if that's the goal.
See the link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ea...AT2vYC4BA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
Best,
Confederate troops defending Fredericksburg
Thoughts, guys?
Entertaining as all get-out, but...no.
1) Fremont's martial law proclamation in St. Louis was Aug. 30; Polk's invasion of Kentucky was Sept. 3. Mill Springs was not until January. Fremont withdraws the proclamation or off he goes, no matter how much Jessie complains.
2) Volunteers did not get general officer commissions in 1861-62 "just because"...they got them because a) they could raise troops, or b) they had proven themselves as lower ranks: case in point, Franz Sigel, who got a full rank major generalcy (USV, not RA) in March, 1862, and because he had demonstrated his abilities as a recruiter (I fights mitt Sigel) and (somewhat) as a brigadier in 1861-62, notably at Pea Ridge. Sigel had been a US resident since 1852, as well, and he was the first emigrant to get two stars that I see on the lists...
Garibaldi, if he had come to the US, might have received a major general's (USV) commission as a volunteer, given his reputation, AND if he could actually raise any troops...if so, he might have gotten an "Latin" division, akin to Blenker's "German" division. Again, what Seward offered or alluded to in his July letter to Sandford was just that, a MG's commission in "the army of the United States" (which is an interesting choise of words), with no detail beyond that. It could have been brevet USV, actually, with a full rank BG USV. Again, there would be a quid pro quo; there always was...
As an example, it is worth noting that Charles Frederick Havelock, younger brother of Henry, distinguished record in the British army, and a MG in the Ottoman army, came to the US about the same time as a volunteer and never even got a commission, of any type. Paul Cluseret got a colonel's commission, but didn't get a BG until after Cross Keys, and that was based on his record on active service.
The other problem with Garibaldi is whatever recruits his reputation as a revolutionary may bring, his fights with the Church are not exactly going to bring Catholics into the recruiting offices...be better off offering Archbishop Hughes a commission, if that's the goal.
See the link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ea...AT2vYC4BA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
Best,
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Basically ASB, unfortunely Garibaldi was convinced that only the King of Sardinia had a shot to unify Italy, so even if he was a staunch Repubblican he pledge his alliance towards Vittorio Emanuele III and even if he was many time critic of the doing of the italian goverments and the monarch he never even though to overthrow him.
For this reason he and Cavour worked together, the two men really doesn't like each others and had some epic struggle, but their objective aka Italian unifican was first and foremost and anything else was secondary.
Regarding Garibaldi bring volunteers for the Union cause; well he was really good at inflame the soul of men and was famous so it's very plausible that there will be men flocking under his banner.
Well there is no attempt by Garibaldi to take Rome in 62, that endevour ended with him wounded by the italian troops sent to stop him...as nobody want a war with France (the protector of the Pope).
This save the goverment a lot of embarassing and keep the relations with France civil; i don't know if this butterfly the treaty of 1864 that stated that the Italian goverment will have protected the Papal state independece by external enemies (but not internal) in exchange by the retreat of the french troops, and allowing the passage of the capital by Turin to Florence; it's very possible that this will still happen due to the desire of Nappy III to normalise the relationships with Italy so to sign a more formal alliance.
So, when will Italy become a nation? And the end of the Papal state?
Technically, there is already a Kingdom of Italy so Italy is a nation (just newlyborn); the aquisition of Venetia and the conquest of Rome are considered the conclusion of Risorgimento even if many don't see that as a clear and cut things due to the question of the irredente land in possession of Austria-Hungary.
But no italian patriot will even consider the unification process ended till Rome is the capital