Less Harsh Brest-Litovsk

I think we can all agree that the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was very harsh.

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The loss of Ukraine and the Baltic effectively rendered the New Bolshevik Republic without the majority of its grain growing territory. It was a famine waiting to happen if such terms stood.

Though the German High Command and Junkers were pleased, the treaty had the unfortunate effect of further strengthening the resolve of the allies still fighting on the western front.

The propaganda machine in France and UK went into high gear, producing images of Brest-Litovsk type terms being imposed by Germany on the west if the was lost. This, among other things, may have staved off revolution on the homefront for a new more years.

But what if Brest-Litovsk was less harsh, to a massive degree?

Say instead Germany demands a free polish buffer and some Baltic territory around Memel and nothing more. Would the allies have been more open to coming to terms after Russia was knocked out?
 
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They did that IOTL. The original peace proposal just had Poland and the Balctics stripped away from Russia. The Bolsheviks refused these terms.

Then they continued to push on and demand more. The treaty the Bolsheviks accepted gave the entire baltics away along with poland a free ukraine.

If you read my OP, I said just Poland and some territory around memel.
 
The idea of the severity of Brest Litovsk effecting how hard the Entente fight and the severity of revolutionary agitation is a fascinating one.

Certainly if the treaty were "only Poland" (even a big Poland) that wouldn't have nearly the psychological impact of OTL's treaty since the Russians were already promising to liberate Poland.

The effect on the nationalist movements in the East would be small but significant. The Germans either directly encouraged, or encouraged as a backlash against them, nationalism in Ukraine and the Baltics. They also gave weapons and training to groups in Eastern Europe, Finland and Georgia. Would they do the same if the B-L treaty was less harsh? My guess: it depends on WHY the treaty ends up less harsh.

I wonder if the increased numbers of German troops available without needing to garrison so much of East Europe would make a difference in the battles in the West?

fasquardon
 
I don't think the Germans would accept anything less than Poland, Lithuania, Courland and an independent Finland (as well as border corrections in the Caucasus region in the Ottomans' favor). It'd be less harsh than the original treaty proposed to Russia and way less extreme than Brest-Litovsk.
 

tenthring

Banned
The thing with B-L is its hard to call it a treaty. This isn't like a treaty between two distinct parties capable to implementing its directives. What happened in the east was always going to be a "what you can control on the ground" situation.
 
They did that IOTL. The original peace proposal just had Poland and the Balctics stripped away from Russia. The Bolsheviks refused these terms.

Trotsky refused those terms. The Bolshevik leadership put it to a series of votes, with Leon basically being the swing vote. He was undecided, then decided in favor (briefly), before reversing his decision and voting against. If he'd eaten some bad fish after his yes vote, and been stuck in bed for a couple days, the Poland-Baltics peace would have been it.

Or if he'd realized the Germans could just walk in if the Bolsheviks kept stonewalling. He finally decided against because he felt a peace that put territory in German hands would rewarding imperialism - if he'd been cognizant of the likely alternative he might have gone the other way.

Of the two, though, something like the former is more likely. The man cast the deciding "yes" vote - just have it stick. Easy.
 
The thing with B-L is its hard to call it a treaty. This isn't like a treaty between two distinct parties capable to implementing its directives. What happened in the east was always going to be a "what you can control on the ground" situation.

Yes, but initially the Germans controlled much less. It was only after the Russians refused to sign and tried to string it out that the Germans pushed ahead and came to control ridiculously large territories.
 
Then they continued to push on and demand more.

Nope. The Bolsheviks refused the first B-L offer, which was much more constrained in the demands then the OTL treaty. After the Bolsheviks refused, the Germans pushed into Ukraine.

The treaty the Bolsheviks accepted gave the entire baltics away along with poland a free ukraine.

The final treaty. Not the first peace terms offered to the Bolsheviks.

I said just Poland and some territory around memel.

Which is similar to what the Germans initially offered.
 
Nope. The Bolsheviks refused the first B-L offer, which was much more constrained in the demands then the OTL treaty. After the Bolsheviks refused, the Germans pushed into Ukraine.



The final treaty. Not the first peace terms offered to the Bolsheviks.



Which is similar to what the Germans initially offered.

What does that have to do with my OP?

I know what happened.

I'm saying if the final Treaty of BL was less harsh. So what if they denied the first one? The one that was eventually approved was catastrophic and hardened the Wallies resolve.

And FYI some territory around Memel isn't the same as the entire Baltics.
 
What does that have to do with my OP?

Having the Bolsheviks accepting the first offer is a way to achieve the "less harsh B-L treaty" you ask for in the OP.

I'm saying if the final Treaty of BL was less harsh. So what if they denied the first one? The one that was eventually approved was catastrophic and hardened the Wallies resolve.

It's extremely important because if the first offer is still rejected, Germany will still invade Ukraine and you'll end up with the same final treaty of OTL.

IMHO the only way to get a less harsh B-L treaty is for the first peace offer to be accepted; asking for the Germans to not demand the Ukraine in a peace deal when they have basically overran the place is more than a bit implausible.

And FYI some territory around Memel isn't the same as the entire Baltics.

FYI the Germans took much of Lithuania and Latvia in 1915. They planned to turn the territory into a buffer zone, so Germany just giving the land back is not going to happen.
 
Having the Bolsheviks accepting the first offer is a way to achieve the "less harsh B-L treaty" you ask for in the OP.



It's extremely important because if the first offer is still rejected, Germany will still invade Ukraine and you'll end up with the same final treaty of OTL.

IMHO the only way to get a less harsh B-L treaty is for the first peace offer to be accepted; asking for the Germans to not demand the Ukraine in a peace deal when they have basically overran the place is more than a bit implausible.



FYI the Germans took much of Lithuania and Latvia in 1915. They planned to turn the territory into a buffer zone, so Germany just giving the land back is not going to happen.

Having the Bolsheviks accept the initial terms would an interesting WI
 
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