Less cartoonishly evil nazism - how would they be thought of?

[HBsennah94]

I just want to say that I do not adhere to or otherwise support nazism.
Now that that is out of the way: Suppose, given any plausible POV, that Hitler is less crazed or someone more pragmatic takes over for whatever reason after the Machtergreifung.
Suppose that, given the general wish for revenge, something still makes WWII take off.
Suppose that the 'racial' part of nazi believes manifest more like apartheid, as opposed to OTL.
Suppose the eastern front is still a charnel house, but not quite as explicitly evil against the civilians, barring the usual exceptions.
Nazi Germany is still defeated and occupied.
Given these differences would people think of the nazis as generic fascist maniacs or still as OTLs abomination from hell or something else entirely? Your thoughts?

 

[Mark E.]

Most possible way: Hitler becomes chancellor in 1933 and dies before he replaces the SA with the SS and before he revokes the citizenship of the Jews. The Nazis are just another political party. The are strong-armed. They are radical. They are anti-Semitic. But like the Second Reich, they don't pursue anything like the Holocaust.

 

[Rambam23]

Most possible way: Hitler becomes chancellor in 1933 and dies before he replaces the SA with the SS and before he revokes the citizenship of the Jews. The Nazis are just another political party. The are strong-armed. They are radical. They are anti-Semitic. But like the Second Reich, they don't pursue anything like the Holocaust.

I think this is missing that the genocidal ambitions of the Nazis, while largely stemming from Hitler, would not go away with him. Men like Goebbels, Streicher and Rosenberg would all push for genocide. Of course, this gets into the functionalist/intentionalist debate that has no winners. It all would depend who Hitler would be replaced with. What if it were Himmler?! That might be even worse (not that it could have been much worse).

 

[sloreck]

IMHO unless you make the Nazis "non-Nazis", a significant racial elements remains. Of course the desire for completely undoing Versailles and some element of Lebensraum remains. Of course the anticommunism is there. A Nazi non-Hitler might stop after occupying Czechoslovakia - you now have a large German state, you have fellow travelers in Italy, Hungary, and Romania for sure. Jews are still wearing the yellow star and being progressively robbed and ghettoized, non-Aryans are becoming second class citizens. In German territory Jews are being literally put in ghettos or being expelled. Diplomatic/military pressure is put on Poland for revision of some territorial issues but the war does not start, if Germany combines with the USSR to pressure Poland without an invasion, how far will France and the UK go to support them as long as no bullets are flying.

In this scenario those who were impressed with or supported fascism, who were perfectly OK with the extreme antisemitism, who were anticommunists, can still support Germany in the absence of the war. Even things like the T4 program would be seen as reasonable by many who were enthralled by eugenics.

Internally, getting rid of the bulk of the Jews by emigration/expulsion and ghettoizing any remainder with the Reich would be OK even with many fanatic Nazis. A major driver behind the Wannsee Conference and the decision for the "final solution" was the fact that Germany/Reich territory was acquiring large numbers of Jews rather than reducing the number of Jews within the Reich. Coupled with the war going on, and therefore emigration/expulsion were not options another "solution" had to be found.

 

[HBsennah94]

IMHO unless you make the Nazis "non-Nazis", a significant racial elements remains. Never said it would not. Of course the desire for completely undoing Versailles and some element of Lebensraum remains. Of course the anticommunism is there. A Nazi non-Hitler might stop after occupying Czechoslovakia - you now have a large German state, you have fellow travelers in Italy, Hungary, and Romania for sure. Which might lead to them being seen as just another extreme right wing movement. Jews are still wearing the yellow star and being progressively robbed and ghettoized, non-Aryans are becoming second class citizens. In German territory Jews are being literally put in ghettos or being expelled. As I said, more like apartheid and less like OTL genocide. Diplomatic/military pressure is put on Poland for revision of some territorial issues but the war does not start, if Germany combines with the USSR to pressure Poland without an invasion, how far will France and the UK go to support them as long as no bullets are flying. From memory they guaranteed the polish borders as they were. Might just be me confusing something, though.

In this scenario those who were impressed with or supported fascism, who were perfectly OK with the extreme antisemitism, who were anticommunists, can still support Germany in the absence of the war. Even things like the T4 program would be seen as reasonable by many who were enthralled by eugenics. Didn't some countries do involuntary eugenic surgeries into the 1960-70s?

Internally, getting rid of the bulk of the Jews by emigration/expulsion and ghettoizing any remainder with the Reich would be OK even with many fanatic Nazis. A major driver behind the Wannsee Conference and the decision for the "final solution" was the fact that Germany/Reich territory was acquiring large numbers of Jews rather than reducing the number of Jews within the Reich. Coupled with the war going on, and therefore emigration/expulsion were not options another "solution" had to be found.
A more pragmatic leader might have put them into super-GULAGs. Given GULAG-esque conditions the 'problem' would eventually take care of itself. Now, I don't condone such things, but don't you think that they might plausibly have taken that route, as opposed to Auschwitz-esque genocide? Would that not seem to that world like extreme, but not significantly different from the soviets, apart from racism?

 

[MickCz]

The Nazis were far from "cartoonish". It is only post War films and "entertainment " which have made them seem so. Their evil was, as reported, banal and everyday; in other words considerably more insidious and dangerous.

To prevent the Holocaust, one must prevent WW2. Hitler said that a war would entail the destruction of the Jews....and duly sought to bring that destruction about.

But with Hitler in charge WW2 cannot be prevented. The German economy was not strong enough to survive much longer. Schacht had pointed out the problems. Inflation and economic problems were coming, and with them the end of support for the Nazi party. Hitler's entire strategy was to occupy and exploit the East and therefore to avert the problems.

If Hitler had gone prior to WW2 starting, (unlikely), the Jews would have been persecuted and expelled but probably not killed. The German economy would also have duly collapsed in time.

 

[pattersonautobody]

Great OP. Ironically, due to propaganda, I don't think they'd be remembered any different. I mean, they were treated like evil incarnate before they found out about the holocaust. So, we'd have this same idea but perhaps the USSR would get full nazi treatment and gulag movies during the cold war.

 

[Max Sinister]

How do you define "less cartoonishly evil"?

 

[Mark E.]

How do you define "less cartoonishly evil"?

By cartoonish, I guess it is the notion that any reference to the Nazis or the symbolism has become the ultimate image of pure evil, genocide, Holocaust, etc. The question might be, was there ever an “out” period when the Nazis would go down as a strong-arm authoritarian movement that put an economy on track and did not execute people. After all, dictatorships arose in Italy, Spain and Russia as well. Even FDR’s executive order to end the use of gold currency bordered on dictatorial.

Step back and look at the role of Jewish businessmen through WW1. Anti-Semitism was around but so was Jim Crow in America. It has long been my opinion that the need to execute the Jews was seeded by Hitler alone, but the more I read, the more it sounds like his closest operatives were moved into this thought process very early in the twenties. So Hitler would need to die before the economy collapsed in 1923 for the Nazis to possibly be “just another” political party.

 

[Garrison]

I just want to say that I do not adhere to or otherwise support nazism.
Now that that is out of the way: Suppose, given any plausible POV, that Hitler is less crazed or someone more pragmatic takes over for whatever reason after the Machtergreifung.
Suppose that, given the general wish for revenge, something still makes WWII take off.
Suppose that the 'racial' part of nazi believes manifest more like apartheid, as opposed to OTL.
Suppose the eastern front is still a charnel house, but not quite as explicitly evil against the civilians, barring the usual exceptions.
Nazi Germany is still defeated and occupied.
Given these differences would people think of the nazis as generic fascist maniacs or still as OTLs abomination from hell or something else entirely? Your thoughts?

The problem is that like every other thread on the same topic it boils down to 'what if the Nazis weren't Nazis?' The anti-Semitism, the conquest of lebensraum and the annihilation of Slavic populations were a core part of the Nazi plans and if you have a party that's rational enough to reject or even tone them down it is massively improbable there will be anything resembling WWII.

 

[Max Sinister]

By cartoonish, I guess it is the notion that any reference to the Nazis or the symbolism has become the ultimate image of pure evil, genocide, Holocaust, etc.

OK, I had thought you had referred to the weirder aspects of the nazis (Hitler biting carpets, their fascination with the occult, drug abuse...)

 

[connorCD]

I don't see how things like ethnic genocide or ethnic ultranationalism count as "cartoonish." It's not like its some new idea that the Nazis made.

 

[TheKutKu]

OK, I had thought you had referred to the weirder aspects of the nazis (Hitler biting carpets, their fascination with the occult, drug abuse...)

Hitler never ate carpets, it was a mistranslation of “Teppichfresser”, which is a slang term for a person who flies into an uncontrollable rage very easily

 

[HBsennah94]

With cartoonishliy evil, I meant over the top evil. Some might be banal, but the whole purpose was... when people speak of evil, the first thing that comes to mind will most often be the nazis... kind of evil.