Leopold Joseph survives

Say Leopold Joseph the only son of HRE Joseph I, survives, through not suffering for his otl illness that killed him and is alive during the war of Spanish Succession, and consequently butterflies enable his father to live on through 1711 and the pox that killed him, what might the consequences of this be?

Would the allies continue fighting to place Charles on the Spanish throne? How successful might they be?

Who are marriage options for Leopold?
 
Butterflies are unlikely to stop Joseph from being a whore-monger, he still get syphilis anyways, so he dies in the 1710s.

For the WoSS, the outcome in Spain was unlikely to change, Charles simply didn't had enough support outside of Catalonia to win the crown, and by the time the war ended in OTL everyone was pretty exhausted, of course the outcome can change a bit (France gets the upper hand and gets something, the Allies delivers a significant defeat on Louis XIV and snatch something, etc.), but I can see he becoming King of Both Sicilies, Duchy of Milan and etc.

Marriages options are interesting, Frederick William I of Prussia (the Soldier King), wanted a Habsburg match for his eldest daughter (Wilhelmina b. 1809) in OTL, but Charles never scored a male heir so she was shipped to a distant Hohenzollern branch, maybe ITTL he converts to Catholicism and becomes Holy Roman Empress. ;)
 
Butterflies are unlikely to stop Joseph from being a whore-monger, he still get syphilis anyways, so he dies in the 1710s.

For the WoSS, the outcome in Spain was unlikely to change, Charles simply didn't had enough support outside of Catalonia to win the crown, and by the time the war ended in OTL everyone was pretty exhausted, of course the outcome can change a bit (France gets the upper hand and gets something, the Allies delivers a significant defeat on Louis XIV and snatch something, etc.), but I can see he becoming King of Both Sicilies, Duchy of Milan and etc.

Marriages options are interesting, Frederick William I of Prussia (the Soldier King), wanted a Habsburg match for his eldest daughter (Wilhelmina b. 1809) in OTL, but Charles never scored a male heir so she was shipped to a distant Hohenzollern branch, maybe ITTL he converts to Catholicism and becomes Holy Roman Empress. ;)

Interesting could one not use butterflies from preventing Joseph for getting syphyllis though?

And interesting and naturally if Leopold has sons there will be no war of Austrian succession

Might they try to claim Spain again?
 
Interesting could one not use butterflies from preventing Joseph for getting syphyllis though?

And interesting and naturally if Leopold has sons there will be no war of Austrian succession

Might they try to claim Spain again?

Except for one issue. Wilhelmine had a calming influence on Josef's personality - from what I've read. However, she was too stiff, too formal etc to hold his attention too much (if the analogy of Josef I as the HRE's Sun King is used, then Wilhelmine is definitely Maria Teresa; he loved her probably more than LXIV did his wife, but she couldn't necessarily hold his attention.

Other points: Wilhelmine contracted syphilis from Josef when she fell pregnant with M. Amalie, since the syphilis rendered her unable to further conceive, so IDK if a surviving son is going to change all that much.

Also, Leopold Josef suffered from hydrocephaly (same as his cousin in descent from James I, William, duke of Gloucester), so how much use he's going to be even if he survives, is questionable (since Gloucester is often likened to the English Carlos II)
 
Except for one issue. Wilhelmine had a calming influence on Josef's personality - from what I've read. However, she was too stiff, too formal etc to hold his attention too much (if the analogy of Josef I as the HRE's Sun King is used, then Wilhelmine is definitely Maria Teresa; he loved her probably more than LXIV did his wife, but she couldn't necessarily hold his attention.

Other points: Wilhelmine contracted syphilis from Josef when she fell pregnant with M. Amalie, since the syphilis rendered her unable to further conceive, so IDK if a surviving son is going to change all that much.

Also, Leopold Josef suffered from hydrocephaly (same as his cousin in descent from James I, William, duke of Gloucester), so how much use he's going to be even if he survives, is questionable (since Gloucester is often likened to the English Carlos II)


Interesting, and if butterflies prevent Leopold Joseph suffering hydrocephaly?
 
Interesting, and if butterflies prevent Leopold Joseph suffering hydrocephaly?

I'm not a medical person, but AFAIK hydrocephaly is a condition that you're born with, meaning that that POD would be 9 months earlier in the emperor's bed, so Leopold could just as easily be born Leopoldina.
 
Hydrocephalus can be either genetic or from some defect on pregnancy (like Zika causing microcephalus), so we can use the "Rule of Doubt" and claim TTL Leopold Joseph is a healthy boy.
 
Hydrocephalus can be either genetic or from some defect on pregnancy (like Zika causing microcephalus), so we can use the "Rule of Doubt" and claim TTL Leopold Joseph is a healthy boy.

Sounds good, you know his father died of small pox I believe so could that not be butterflies as well?
 
I'd be interested to see how things go with a Prussian Holy Roman Empress instead of a Lorrainer emperor. I somehow doubt OTL Alte Fritz is going to be marching into Silesia if his beloved sister is the mother of the future emperor.
 
I'd be interested to see how things go with a Prussian Holy Roman Empress instead of a Lorrainer emperor. I somehow doubt OTL Alte Fritz is going to be marching into Silesia if his beloved sister is the mother of the future emperor.

Aha very true, very true.

So are you suggesting that someone such as Charlotte Albertine could marry Leopold Joseph or his son?
 
Aha very true, very true.

So are you suggesting that someone such as Charlotte Albertine could marry Leopold Joseph or his son?

No I was simply echoing what was said earlier in the thread about FWI wanting Wilhelmine to marry the future emperor. I've never read that, I was always under the impression that the English marriages were the only match besides her husband ever considered for her. Charlotte Albertine would be too young in any event, Wilhelmine would be closer in age.

That said, Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick might not marry Karl VI here (for whatever reason), but she did have an illegitimate half-sister born in 1702. So if that illegitimate half-sister were born to her mother instead of her father's mistress, you might see another Guelph princess marrying a Habsburg king of the Romans., her grandfather was certainly ambitious enough. Thus, Lieschen is a possible candidate to marry whomever in Germany (she was reportedly very beautiful and extremely intelligent), her younger sister, Charlotte, marries either the Tsarevich Alexei or King Carl XII (apparently her father/grandfather did a coin toss on deciding who was the better horse to back); Antoinette marries the duke of Brunswick (as OTL) and the daughter born in 1702 marries the Holy Roman Emperor (the Brunswicks are the Coburgs a century early)
 
No I was simply echoing what was said earlier in the thread about FWI wanting Wilhelmine to marry the future emperor. I've never read that, I was always under the impression that the English marriages were the only match besides her husband ever considered for her. Charlotte Albertine would be too young in any event, Wilhelmine would be closer in age.

That said, Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick might not marry Karl VI here (for whatever reason), but she did have an illegitimate half-sister born in 1702. So if that illegitimate half-sister were born to her mother instead of her father's mistress, you might see another Guelph princess marrying a Habsburg king of the Romans., her grandfather was certainly ambitious enough. Thus, Lieschen is a possible candidate to marry whomever in Germany (she was reportedly very beautiful and extremely intelligent), her younger sister, Charlotte, marries either the Tsarevich Alexei or King Carl XII (apparently her father/grandfather did a coin toss on deciding who was the better horse to back); Antoinette marries the duke of Brunswick (as OTL) and the daughter born in 1702 marries the Holy Roman Emperor (the Brunswicks are the Coburgs a century early)


Interesting, so if Leopold Joseph marries Wihelmine, what consequences could that have?

Though of course Karl VI's otl wife's sister being trueborn and married to Karl's nephew is also very interesting and brings lots of consequences.

Would Jospeh still die of small pox, or could that be butterflied?
 
I've always thought that Josef I is one of the most underappreciated of the Habsburg Emperors. He's like a more sane version of his great-nephew Josef II: reformist within reason. Personally I'd love to see a surviving Josef I TL. Actually, I had considered writing one myself last year before getting discouraged at the lack of good sources on Josef, his reign and his plans for reform.

That being said, I think the best POD would be to have Josef never catch syphilis. After all, many monarchs slept around and never caught an STD. That or kill off Wilhelmine during the 1711 smallpox epidemic that OTL killed Josef.

As for brides, maybe Infanta Francisca Josefa of Portugal (b. 1699) or Princesse Charlotte Aglaé d'Orléans (b. 1700)? The former could be possible as her brother João V was married to Archduchess Anna Maria and Portugal was fabulously wealthy at this point. And the later could be part of the general attempt at reconciliation under the Régence of Philippe II.

BTW, if your interested I can PM you my notes on the Josef I TL.
 
I've always thought that Josef I is one of the most underappreciated of the Habsburg Emperors. He's like a more sane version of his great-nephew Josef II: reformist within reason. Personally I'd love to see a surviving Josef I TL. Actually, I had considered writing one myself last year before getting discouraged at the lack of good sources on Josef, his reign and his plans for reform.

That being said, I think the best POD would be to have Josef never catch syphilis. After all, many monarchs slept around and never caught an STD. That or kill off Wilhelmine during the 1711 smallpox epidemic that OTL killed Josef.

As for brides, maybe Infanta Francisca Josefa of Portugal (b. 1699) or Princesse Charlotte Aglaé d'Orléans (b. 1700)? The former could be possible as her brother João V was married to Archduchess Anna Maria and Portugal was fabulously wealthy at this point. And the later could be part of the general attempt at reconciliation under the Régence of Philippe II.

BTW, if your interested I can PM you my notes on the Josef I TL.

Okay interesting, and that would be very useful, thanks :)
 
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