Leo Frankowski's Conrad Stargard Novels

[Tom Kalbfus]

Before Alternate History really became fashionable, there was this series of novels by Leo Frankowski: The Radiant Warrior, The High Tech Knight, The Flying Warlord, Lord Conrad's Lady, Conrad's Quest for Rubber.

How would you rate these novels as Alternate History?

 

[B_Munro]

The only thing that sticks in my mind was the fact the hero created a chain of whorehouses called "pink dragon inns" (IIRC) and that the Mongols were white (apparently Mongolians currently look asian because of all the brides they brought back from China) and attack in huge disorganized hordes. Oh, and he gets a magic pony. I'd rate them roughly in the same ballpark as Harry Harrison's US-vs-UK series, the name of which currently escapes me.

Bruce

 

[Dure]

How would you rate these novels as Alternate History?

Bad, magnificently bad. When I read the first one it was just about OK, sexist, racist, fascist and jingoistic but readable. The rest of the series just got worse and worse but at the same time funnier and funnier. I was not completely sure he was taking the pee out of his audience until the last one, the quest for rubber - the title alone is a hoot.

 

[Slacker]

They're entertaining, so long as one's tongue is firmly planted in cheek.

 

[Major Major]

Bad, magnificently bad. When I read the first one it was just about OK, sexist, racist, fascist and jingoistic but readable. The rest of the series just got worse and worse but at the same time funnier and funnier. I was not completely sure he was taking the pee out of his audience until the last one, the quest for rubber - the title alone is a hoot.

One couldn't take them seriously as AH, not after the magic guys who controlled all space and time and could slip him things like the Wonder Horse who was more intelligent than most of the locals. Not to mention of all things rose seed.

It was comic, though, watching him get all cut up about having a German name since according to all good Poles Germans are evil evil evil. Since "Szwarc" is a perfectly good Polish name (it's even pronounced the same) the problem seems contrived. Not to mention that if he were really cut up about it he could translate the name: "Czerny".

Then the scene where the dozen free-lance inquisitors from Spain come up to Poland to try and burn witches, and Conrad summons a jury, tries them, and has them hanged. This contains enough presentism, absurdity, and ignorance for a dozen books. For one thing, there was no Spain then, no witch-craze, and not that much of an Inquisition, which in any case was then focused on heresy (mostly the Cathars). And a guy killing a bunch of priests would be in big trouble with the Church, no matter how disobedient they were.

The appendix about the organization of his peacekeeping army, how it took in Jews because they would stand watch on Sunday, how they took five-mile strips between countries and so prevented aggression was fun, too. I can just imagine how the Border Reivers of the English-Scots border would love having such fine targets.

And when I pointed this sort of thing out in a review, Frankowski wrote in and said that he was quite serious and all his friends had praised his research.

 

[xchen08]

One couldn't take them seriously as AH, not after the magic guys who controlled all space and time and could slip him things like the Wonder Horse who was more intelligent than most of the locals. Not to mention of all things rose seed.

It was comic, though, watching him get all cut up about having a German name since according to all good Poles Germans are evil evil evil. Since "Szwarc" is a perfectly good Polish name (it's even pronounced the same) the problem seems contrived. Not to mention that if he were really cut up about it he could translate the name: "Czerny".

Then the scene where the dozen free-lance inquisitors from Spain come up to Poland to try and burn witches, and Conrad summons a jury, tries them, and has them hanged. This contains enough presentism, absurdity, and ignorance for a dozen books. For one thing, there was no Spain then, no witch-craze, and not that much of an Inquisition, which in any case was then focused on heresy (mostly the Cathars). And a guy killing a bunch of priests would be in big trouble with the Church, no matter how disobedient they were.

The appendix about the organization of his peacekeeping army, how it took in Jews because they would stand watch on Sunday, how they took five-mile strips between countries and so prevented aggression was fun, too. I can just imagine how the Border Reivers of the English-Scots border would love having such fine targets.

And when I pointed this sort of thing out in a review, Frankowski wrote in and said that he was quite serious and all his friends had praised his research.

Wow. Can you give a link? It's always amusing when authors start getting on a high horse. I had thought the novels to be an intentionally absurd, escapist take on the classic modern man goes back in time/is landed somewhere primitive, and builds himself an empire while getting the princess and righting historical wrongs genre. I didn't know Frankowski was an actual crazy nationalist with delusions of grandeur.

 

[Dure]

Major Major,

I am horrified that Frankowski might actually have been being serious when he wrote this series. Are you sure his protests were not a kind of double bluff?

 

[Major Major]

Major Major,

I am horrified that Frankowski might actually have been being serious when he wrote this series. Are you sure his protests were not a kind of double bluff?

This was when the first book came out, so there's nothing to link to.

And as far as I can tell, he was quite serious about it, and a bit hurt. Somehow it seems beyond the power of anyone to drag a satire on that long.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Wow. Can you give a link? It's always amusing when authors start getting on a high horse. I had thought the novels to be an intentionally absurd, escapist take on the classic modern man goes back in time/is landed somewhere primitive, and builds himself an empire while getting the princess and righting historical wrongs genre. I didn't know Frankowski was an actual crazy nationalist with delusions of grandeur.

Mark Twain wrote a novel like this some time ago. Wasn't it called A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court? This is kind of the Polish version of that novel. Yep Mark Twain wrote Alternate History, and the device of his time travel was a bump on the head.

 

[Dure]

Somehow it seems beyond the power of anyone to drag a satire on that long

.

Oh! I dunno Harrison managed to get three volumes of Stars and Stripes.

 

[The Lurker]

If it was supposed to be serious, it was abominable and inaccurate.

If it was supposed to be a parody, it sucked at parody.



I begrudge the money I spent on this crap.

 

[ac220v]

Currently midway through the 1st book... Had it been generic fantasyland, it would be rather good. As medieval ANYWHERE it's laughably bad. I mean he got some things right, like horses (except that one) not being motorbikes, his knights actually wearing gambesons, and so on. But he got much more things horribly, that is absolutely, wrong.

Like his description of medieval swords and swordfights. Early XIII-century bastard swords made of wrought iron... (Ok, longswords started to appear around then, but they weren't common.) Shields not used in swordfights AT ALL. (I mean, knights just carry them around. Halfway through the book and after several battles no one parryed anything with a shield.) And so on ad nauseam.

Or the simple fact that contrary to author's belief 13th century Polish language won't be readily understood to someone who knows just modern Polish. (Like Russian, Polish dropped aorist and perfect tenses sometimes AFTER the 13th century, not to mention subtle shifts in meanings and pronounciation, dialects, loanwords, etc.)

Granted, Old Polish is much more understandable to someone knowing just modern Polish than Old English to an average modern English-speaker, and true, you can kinda-sorta understand any Slavic language knowing just one (I can.), but you won't be fluent in it, like Conrad is, from the get-go. And Conrad's constant references to "grams", "liters", and in one case "cents"(!) in his dialogue, which are apparently understood by the locals, don't help a single bit. Speaking of which medieval girls don't use words like "fantastic". They really don't.

And speaking of "cents," - Money in the series might be as well called "[Metal] Pieces™" They are treated exactly as if it was a D&D campaign ran by a DM who was very lazy.

And yes, we know that modern notions on what is and isn't "underage" and "out of wedlock" aren't always like ones they had back then. That doesn't mean that you have to add at least one 14-year old girl who has a thing for knights to every chapter. (At least there weren't any actual sex scenes so far.)

Again, I'm just halfway through the 1st book, but I think that at least some of it could be read. If you pretend it's generic fantasyland AND tend to agree with at least some of the author's views. Not as a serious ISOT story.

ADD: Also, I'm not an expert on mindset of 30 years old Polish engineers brought up during the 70s, but whatever it was, Frankowski portrayed it wrong. Typically American attitudes with frequent, but vague mentions of "socialism," simply don't sound right.

ADD2: Oh, joy! Someone actually weighted those "silver pennies" at least! And parchment is definitely not like paper. But it's still as sloppy as Dan Brown at his worst, and Dan Brown at least has less political axes to grind.

 

[ac220v]

"[W]ould our future machines be rated in pigpower the way Americans use horsepower?"
My GAWD! Everyone uses horsepower, either "metric" HP or BHP, for engines, and kilowatts for electrical generators and such, at least unofficially.

Although idea of PPP (Polish Pig Power) is hillarious...

 

[Prince Charon]

"[W]ould our future machines be rated in pigpower the way Americans use horsepower?"
My GAWD! Everyone uses horsepower, either "metric" HP or BHP, for engines, and kilowatts for electrical generators and such, at least unofficially.

Although idea of PPP (Polish Pig Power) is hillarious...

It isn't going to be pig power. The real answer is (to me, at least) even funnier.

EDIT: On the inconsistencies, you don't so much have to assume that its 'generic fanasyland without magic' (although Conrad in a generic fantasyland with magic would be interesting), as assume that the universe Conrad came from was already AU from our own. As for the measurements, different nations use different ones, so if Conrad didn't explain his weights and measures 'off camera', their most likely just humouring him, since they think he's foreign. Pretty much the same thing for cents.

 

[ac220v]

As for the measurements, different nations use different ones, so if Conrad didn't explain his weights and measures 'off camera', their most likely just humouring him, since they think he's foreign. Pretty much the same thing for cents.

Well, either that or he talked in local measures, but used metric in his diary. Still sloppy, and that doesn't explain "cents." Conrad was Polish, lived most of his life in Poland. They don't (and never did) use cents there. It's purely author's slip.

P.S. And when Conrad tells Krystyana about rhytmic method being approved by the Pope "in his land," and she doesn't ask quite obvious (and dangerous) questions... Ok, that might have hapened like that. But it isn't good writing.

 

[Major Major]

Well, either that or he talked in local measures, but used metric in his diary. Still sloppy, and that doesn't explain "cents." Conrad was Polish, lived most of his life in Poland. They don't (and never did) use cents there. It's purely author's slip.

P.S. And when Conrad tells Krystyana about rhytmic method being approved by the Pope "in his land," and she doesn't ask quite obvious (and dangerous) questions... Ok, that might have hapened like that. But it isn't good writing.

My theory was that Conrad was actually Conrad Shwartz --- his father was a Polish Jew and his mother a Russian Gentile. He knew all those advanced combat skills because he had gone through spetsnaz training, and he was a GRU agent in the Polish military.

But even that was a "sheep-dipping", as he was intended to work in the Main Enemy (the U.S.). A Pole would face less suspicion there than a Russian, you see. Thus he was as part of his preparation making himself think American -- "cents", the bit during the lynching of the priests where he says that they have juries where he came from, and other matters.

It makes more sense than what Frankowski had.

 

[ac220v]

My theory was that Conrad was actually Conrad Shwartz --- his father was a Polish Jew and his mother a Russian Gentile. He knew all those advanced combat skills because he had gone through spetsnaz training, and he was a GRU agent in the Polish military.

But even that was a "sheep-dipping", as he was intended to work in the Main Enemy (the U.S.). A Pole would face less suspicion there than a Russian, you see. Thus he was as part of his preparation making himself think American -- "cents", the bit during the lynching of the priests where he says that they have juries where he came from, and other matters.

It makes more sense than what Frankowski had.

Well, GRU super agent getting himself drunk like Conrad did for any reason, much less because of a woman he never met before(*) makes little sense either... Not to mention the whole overcomplicsatedness of the whole scheme. But indeed it makes much more sense than canon version.

(*) It's, of course, not exactly perfectly logical thing to do for a manly man who never had any problems getting what he wants from women, whatever his occupation, but that could be explained by the "diary hypotesis," - he actually wasn't at all that good uptime. Downtime he suddenly became rich and powerful which really boosted his confidence (and attractiveness) and selective memory made him think he always was like that.

 

[Bill Cameron]

My theory is that the books suck.

 

[ac220v]

My theory is that the books suck.

Brilliant theory!

But discussing their suckiness, exact degree of it and the reasons why they suck is morbidly amusing for some.

 

[Major Major]

Well, GRU super agent getting himself drunk like Conrad did for any reason, much less because of a woman he never met before(*) makes little sense either... Not to mention the whole overcomplicsatedness of the whole scheme. But indeed it makes much more sense than canon version.

Too much vodka with the boys during training, so getting sloshed for any reason, particularly over a woman, was a habit. As for the overcomplicatedness, that seems to be par for the course.