Leftist leaning Israel

CalBear

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So I thought. I knew of Nehru's Fabian Socialism and so found it somewhat baffling to hear India described as not in any way leftist at all.

If we are using India as the measure of Leftism, then Israel was clearly a far left state (may well still be one). Same thing goes for most of Western Europe, especially Scandivania and the UK.
 

Gwax23

Banned
A Israel being aligned with the soviet union post independence (since the fact that for most of its history it has been 'leftist') would lead to both positives and negatives for the jewish state.

I think one positive which I think will be big will be immigration. An Israel aligned to the soviet union will allow the mass emigration of Soviet Jews (2 million plus atleast ,post ww2) to israel which will contribute significantly to its population. This couple with the already massive jewish emigration from Europe The Muslim world and elsewhere.

Furthermore anti antisemitism might increase in the US especially during the Mcarthy years leading to possibly further emigration from the US to Israel.

These demographic increased will give israel a serious edge that it never had to overcome the possibly technologically inferior weaponry down the line.

It might turn more to domestic made weaponry which have always turned out good for Israel.

This would probably lead to more Israeli territory and secure borders.

Though a more centrally planned Israeli economy will have the same impacts it had on all the other centrally planned economies. Failure. I envision a post soviet union break up Israel moving drastically towards free market principles.

If we want to come up with the most ideal solution for Israel it that it remains neutral vis a vis US vs USSR and the soviets allow the refuseniks to emigrate.
 

nastle

Banned
In that case you can disregard "leftist' as a reqirement.

India was probably the USSR's biggest voluntary arms customer, and continues to have a exceptionally close relationship with Russia, to the point of co-developing weapons systems, including Russian help with the new Arihant class SSBN reactor, and the new Shivalik class FFG. The new BrahMos supersonic ASM/cruise missile, which may be the best weapon of its kind currently in service, is full on partnership between India and Russia.

India's government may be many things, but leftist doesn't come anywhere close.

BTW: One of the things that comes with Soviet weapn systems, unless to go outside for sub systems, is that you are pretty much forced into Soviet style tactics. Soviet tactics tended to come up second best when faced by Western tactics, mainly because Soviet tactics were built around operational mass replacing independent unit flexibility. That actually might have worked for the Red Army in the Fulda Gap (although it is happily an open question that we will never know the answer to), but it has tended to be a poor fit for other who havetried it. There is also the reality that the Soviets (somewhat less so with the post Soviet era Russia) sold far less capable versions of their equipment to their clients than they retained for their own use.

I agree with the underlined part
but would be interesting to see if in the 60s and 70s the isrealis flew Mig-21/23/25 and sukhois while arabs flew mostly F-5/Mirages ( which they did too in some cases) and F-4 phantoms

I think the Israelis would have still beat the Arabs as the fault was more of the pilots than the equipment.But would be happy to discuss this further with anyone willing
 

takerma

Banned
One thing that might happen is that combined arms and artillery have much larger role in IDF. In general before 70s Israel will probably much better of in terms of gear.
 
The USSR, under Stalin, was the FIRST (not second) country to recognize Israel from a legal standpoint (the USA did de facto, Stalin one-upped by going de jure) and this was only three days after Israel declared independence. It was thought that Israel would be pro-communist, pro-soviet. A lot of Jews in the Zionist movement were Russian, Marx was Jewish (His mother's father was a rabbi), Lenin and Trotsky were Jewish, a lot of the early communists were Jewish. I can see Stalin's strange logic in thinking he had a leg up.

The Jewish Autonomous Oblast had already been created in Manchuria/Siberia in 1934 and had reached its peak Jewish population of 30,000 in 1948... the very year of Israeli independence. It's possible that those people are allowed to emigrate to Israel if Israel was more pro-Soviet. India's pro-Soviet tendencies, based more on Pakistan's pro-American policies than anything else, may cause Israel and India to have even better relations creating a three-way make-shift alliance that could hamper Nixon's opening of China as a wedge against the Soviets. In OTL despite being Muslim both Turkey and Pakistan have historically had better relations with Israel than the Arab Muslim world and Iran, and this is in part because of their close USA relations. It is possible that Soviet influence causes a reversal- Turkey and Pakistan are more pro-Arab anti-Israeli, but Iran strangely enough ends up being a bit more tolerant. Wouldn't that be an interesting butterfly? Imagine Iran and Israel both have common Iraq enemy... Iran and India both common Pakistan enemy... Soviets and India both have China as a rival... You now have a loose bloc of USA, China, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and the Arab World in general in a Cold War rivalry against Soviet Union, Israel, Iran, and India. Nasser meets with Ben Gurion and Kruschev after the Six Day War in a quaint country setting in the Crimea and shake hands and peace between Israel and Egypt. 1958 OTL United Arab Republic... does it still happen? If so Nasser and the Soviet Union forces Syria into peace with Israel. Jordan ends up being MORE anti-Israel given its ties to the US and Britain.
 
What could be called "Phase I" of neoliberalization took place during Rajiv Gandhi's term. Phase II, i.e. the heavy lifting, started in 1991 with Rao and Singh. Nehru was a conviction Fabian, his daughter a socialist-leaning opportunist, his elder grandson a technocratic pragmatist.

Well Indira was certainly opportunistic, seeing as she took the socialism platform to take on the Syndicate, but socialist-leaning is probably an understatement. Plus, you forgot the creepy younger grandson in love with slum clearance and forced sterilisation.
 

nastle

Banned
Imagine Iran and Israel both have common Iraq enemy... Iran and India both common Pakistan enemy... Soviets and India both have China as a rival... You now have a loose bloc of USA, China, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and the Arab World in general in a Cold War rivalry against Soviet Union, Israel, Iran, and India. Nasser meets with Ben Gurion and Kruschev after the Six Day War in a quaint country setting in the Crimea and shake hands and peace between Israel and Egypt.
is Iran leftist too ? because if Pahlavi incharge there is no way they will be friendly to USSR or hostile to Pakistan.Unless sunni radicals in Pakistan which was not in OTL until zia ul haq who himself wanted to be neutral in the iran Iraq war
 
In OTL despite being Muslim both Turkey and Pakistan have historically had better relations with Israel than the Arab Muslim world and Iran, and this is in part because of their close USA relations.
Iran had relatively good relations with Israel between 1948 and 1979- it was only after the revolution that relations between Israel and Iran became horrible.
 
I suspect that the Arab world still splits between those closer to America and those closer to the Soviets. I wonder if Israel ending up on the Soviet side would make all that much difference in what the final alliances would look like?

Certainly who allies with who when will look very different though. We may have Nasser isolated from both blocs early on, slowly sliding into an American alliance as time goes on. Syria may still end up being closer to the Soviets due to their shared concerns about Turkey and may end up friendly with Israel due to shared concerns in Lebanon. But I admit I have a hard time seeing that happen.

Wonder if Egypt would slide out of the American alliance and into a Soviet alliance by the 70s/80s? Which has me imagining Qaddafi as an American ally... That would be weird.

fasquardon
 
1) as others have pointed out, your title is vastly misleading. If we go by that, then Israel WAS, for much of its early years. What you meant was 'Soviet allied Israel', or something, which is very different.

2) near the beginning of this year, there were several threads related to this one, which you could check to see what people said then.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=342682&highlight=israel+soviet

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=340755&highlight=israel+soviet

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=342613&highlight=israel+soviet




Possibly
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=341993&highlight=israel+soviet
 
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