Lee's Master Plan

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You know history is a fascinating subject that i have always enjoyed since i was a child. In fact, I've liked history so much that i now have a degree in it. In other words, i'm a historian. Now, i understand and accept the fact that i am not all knowing when it comes to certain things in history. It seems that everyone is telling me that my atl will not work because i haven't researched things like logistics and troop deployments and such. Let me say that you are right, i haven't done a lot of research concering this topic. Rather, i've been busy in the real world looking for a job like so many other people and sometimes i don't update my atl for a day or two.

I understand what everyone is trying to tell me and i thank them for that, but they also need to understand that this is an ALTERNATE TIME LINE. Also, so many people have a cobb up there ass for wanting everthing to be absolutly perfect. Here is a news update for those people: It ain't going to happen! I am sorry if my timeline isn't perfect or up to your standards. I wasn't trying to please you! I'm just doing something that i have always wanted to and am having fun with it also. For those who say that i am ignoring reality, let me say if i was to use reality, then why on earth would i want to right ALTS? The reality is that the south lost the war and if i and everyone else stuck to that fact, then there would be no reason for atls at all. Last but not least a personal note for Don Lardo who said and i quote, "This is simply another example of war game or computer game alternate history." My reply to that is, "Well DUH!" You said it yourself, ALTERNATE HISTORY! So to all of those people who want to sit back and judge and ridicule my ATL, I say this: i don't give a damn what you think mr. high and mightys! I WILL CONTINUE THIS ATL DESPITE YOUR ATTEMPTS TO PERSUADE ME OTHERWISES! Thankyou!


P.S.
For those who care, sorry if a mispelled anything, i'm not a good speller.


Jesus Christ man, calm down. Nobody here has attacked you personally, all they have done is offer constructive criticism and advice. While the premise of the TL does seem interesting, there is a variance on how far someone's willng suspension of disbelief will go. A little research can make for a better story. You don't have to go into in-depth logistics and map out everything (unless you are into that stuff) but at least make it so that it's believable with at least a handwave. And lashing out like that isn't really a good way to gain more readers, it makes you sound unhinged.
 
I'm prepared to take you word with regards to your degree.

Moving on, waving away all the problems with your alternate time line by chanting "Alternate, alternate, alternate" doesn't wash on this forum. Plausibility is part of the equation too and your scenario is seriously lacking in plausibility.

All that being said, I will wish you luck with your time line again.

Good luck.
 
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Actually you can accept the assumption and for the purpose of analyzing a different battle plan to examine the topic from a new point of view to learn something about the course of real history. That is a valid way to conduct alternate history as well, and in fact is closest to what actual historians do.

Exactly. People who get all anal about the "plausibility" of the POD (Don Lardo, I'm looking at you) are somewhat missing the point. The point of a scenario like this one is not to examine why Lee and Davis would act in this way and/or come to this particular course of action, or the likelihood of it, but to examine the results which might flow from the suggested course of action.

Now, the objections regarding the actual availablity of the troops necessary to carry out the "Master Plan" as outlined in the scenario are valid objections, and Valus36 does need to deal with those. Historically, Davis wanted to take troops from Lee's Army of Northern Virginia and send them west to relieve the siege of Vicksburg. This would strongly indicate that Davis believed there simply weren't any spare troops lying around elsewhere that could be sent, without compromising the defenses elsewhere to the point where serious damage to the Confederacy would be done. A scenario which envisages the reinforcement of the Western Theater and Lee's proposed invasion of the North going ahead as well does not seem viable under those circumstances.

While I fully support the concept of the timeline as a what-if exercise, regardless of the "plausibility" of the POD (Plausibility is a completely subjective quality anyway and is literally "in the eye of the beholder," so arguments about that issue are kind of useless, anyway), the scenario is meaningless if the troops weren't available, historically, to carry the plan out. If troops are going to be detached from other fronts, hard choices will have to be made to determine which other fronts the Confederacy can afford to lose in order to save Chattanooga and Vicksburg. There were possibly some out there that could have been, at least temporarily, left to the militia to defend, and a hard choice made to do so. But Valus36 will need to do the research necessary to determine where those are, and how many troops could be gleaned by so doing.
 
First let say that i am not trying to piss people off. If i offened anyone, i apoligize. Let me say that i understand the concerns the people have of my atl, mainly, where in the world is the south going to get the men to make lee's plan plausable. For that answer, i humble ask my readers to wait untill i update the story. I will explain everything as the atl progresses. As for research, let me assure my readers that i am well studied in the civil war and understand logistics, manpower, and the such. Besides the internet, i own at least 100 books on the subject. I somtimes use them when writing an atl to make sure i have a generals name spelled right, or a town and such. Also, the majority of these books i have read at least 2 times or more. So let me assure you that you need not worry about concerns like logistics and manpower and how i am going to make everything work. Trust me, i will answer everyone's questions as the atl continues.

Finally, i want to apoligize to Don Lardo and say that i am sorry if i made you mad. i understand where you are coming from and i respect that. All I ask is that you give me the chance to prove myself before you decide on whether or not you like my atl and wether it is plausable. Anyways, i will update the story soon. Stay tuned!
 
First let say that i am not trying to piss people off. If i offened anyone, i apoligize. Let me say that i understand the concerns the people have of my atl, mainly, where in the world is the south going to get the men to make lee's plan plausable. For that answer, i humble ask my readers to wait untill i update the story. I will explain everything as the atl progresses. As for research, let me assure my readers that i am well studied in the civil war and understand logistics, manpower, and the such. Besides the internet, i own at least 100 books on the subject. I somtimes use them when writing an atl to make sure i have a generals name spelled right, or a town and such. Also, the majority of these books i have read at least 2 times or more. So let me assure you that you need not worry about concerns like logistics and manpower and how i am going to make everything work. Trust me, i will answer everyone's questions as the atl continues.

Finally, i want to apoligize to Don Lardo and say that i am sorry if i made you mad. i understand where you are coming from and i respect that. All I ask is that you give me the chance to prove myself before you decide on whether or not you like my atl and wether it is plausable. Anyways, i will update the story soon. Stay tuned!

Don't worry about Don Lardo, he is naturally grumpy and irritable. And I thought the Davis/Lee relationship was reconciled rather nicely. I would suggest however, doing research before posting, and think about if there are any plot holes like the Davis/Lee relationship and the matter of Confederate reinforcements. Otherwise, people are going to keep complaining.
 
To me, speaking as both a constructive critic:

Alternate history is one thing, fantasy is another. "What if Davis was totally different than he was OTL" might work as a POD. As background, where we're just supposed to assume Davis wakes up with the personality of (for instance) Lincoln in regards to taking advice and criticism and blunt speech? That comes off as, in a word, sloppy. Whether you have a degree in history or not isn't the point.

Obviously some things will be different in alternate timeline. Here's an example from my half-abandoned project (not posted here because its in no shape to call a timeline yet, but it'll serve to illustrate some points):

POD: Davis agrees with Lee that the Confederacy's best chance is to reinforce the ANV to the hilt and if that means leaving North Carolina and other places with minimal regular troops, so be it. Trained and especially veteran troops are more important with Lee.

Davis didn't do that OTL. But its something Davis could be imagined as capable of doing if he felt it was necessary (he did go to great lengths to reinforce Sidney Johnston prior to Shiloh), its something that was historically discussed, and it could be done with the existing resources of the Confederacy.

But Stars and Stripes Forever (review here: http://users.wowway.com/~jenkins/ironclads/ssreview.htm ) is not plausible. And to the extent a timeline asks us to swallow things like that does is the extent that it resembles fantasy rather than alternate history.

So to turn this into something addressing a part of Valus's penultimate post that really bothers me as a constructive-minded critic:

Also, so many people have a cobb up there ass for wanting everthing to be absolutly perfect. Here is a news update for those people: It ain't going to happen! I am sorry if my timeline isn't perfect or up to your standards. I wasn't trying to please you! I'm just doing something that i have always wanted to and am having fun with it also. For those who say that i am ignoring reality, let me say if i was to use reality, then why on earth would i want to right ALTS?
1) So if you're not interested in what we think, why are you posting it here? I mean, what is the reason for posting this somewhere that you will get feedback if you don't care?

2) As stated above, there's a difference between alternate history and fantasy.

If you want to write a timeline where the Confederacy has a big, daring plan by Lee in 1863 and seizes opportunities to win big (maybe not winning the war, but moving in that direction by the end of the year), I'd love to help you.

But if your timeline is going to be filled with stuff that could happen in a computer game but which are utterly impossible in the actual situation, then I'm afraid that's just fantasy.

Valus36 said:
First let say that i am not trying to piss people off. If i offened anyone, i apoligize. Let me say that i understand the concerns the people have of my atl, mainly, where in the world is the south going to get the men to make lee's plan plausable. For that answer, i humble ask my readers to wait untill i update the story. I will explain everything as the atl progresses. As for research, let me assure my readers that i am well studied in the civil war and understand logistics, manpower, and the such. Besides the internet, i own at least 100 books on the subject. I somtimes use them when writing an atl to make sure i have a generals name spelled right, or a town and such. Also, the majority of these books i have read at least 2 times or more. So let me assure you that you need not worry about concerns like logistics and manpower and how i am going to make everything work. Trust me, i will answer everyone's questions as the atl continues.

And I just have to shake my head at this. Your timeline flounders because the questions on manpower have to be addressed to begin with. That doesn't mean you have to have Lee explain them in the form of the Master Plan we've seen so far. That does mean you, the author, have to know these things.

And judging by your references so far on the subject, you don't. Whether you own a hundred books on the subject or not is not the point.

Here, let me give an example.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordview.cfm?content=/038/1039

Breckinridge's division except for the 47th Georgia (which is from Beauregard's department) is from Bragg's army.

McNair's brigade is from Bragg's army, Evans's brigade and two of the artillery batteries are from Beauregard's department. Maxey's brigade and the Louisiana battery are local.

Loring's division is local - part of Pemberton's force, cut off after Champion's Hill.

Walker's division: Ector is from Bragg's army, Gregg's brigade is local, and Wilson and Gist are from Beauregard's department.

Jackson's cavalry division is from West Tennessee.

Of the troops from Beauregard's department, only Evans's brigade, two artillery batteries, and the 47th Georgia are relatively recent arrivals (sent as of the 15th of May). The others were sent at the beginning of the month. Similarly, Ector and McNair were sent from Bragg around the beginning of May and Breckinridge came later.

The reason I'm spelling this out? Because your plan relies on Bragg not being stripped of manpower, which means that the force around Vicksburg loses five brigades of infantry and three batteries. That means up to a third of the infantry is somewhere else. So instead of ~25,000 men, Johnston has more like 16,000.

This is what you don't get, or at least have shown no understanding of in your posts to date. Your posts seem to indicate that you think Johnston had all those troops in the Alabama-Mississippi area and that none of the other areas that will need to be drawn on for manpower to reinforce Bragg and Lee are impacted.

You have two basic choices here:

You can address this, or you can complain that we're picking on your timeline.

Please don't choose the latter.
 
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Finally, i want to apoligize to Don Lardo and say that i am sorry if i made you mad.


There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to apologize for anything because you have done nothing to offend anyone at all.

Let me make that clear: You have no need to apologize whatsoever.

i understand where you are coming from and i respect that.

I'm aware that you understand the points I and others have made. In the end, the decisions are yours to make and, if I happen to think those decisions are ill advised, my opinion is of no consequence.

This is your thread, this is your time line, and the decisions in it are yours and yours alone.

All I ask is that you give me the chance to prove myself before you decide on whether or not you like my atl and wether it is plausable.

I've already made my decision on that issue. That decision was mine to make and mine alone.

Again, allow me to wish you the best of luck with this time line.

Good luck.
 
Here's the REAL problem here Valus. This site, especially the sections for before 1900 and after 1900, deal in Alternate History. Not Alternate Fantasy. Alternate history is done using actual, FACTUAL information from history to modify events to a certain place.

The great works of Alternate History (both actual books and the best of the best timelines here) use actual historical facts to manipulate how events could have been done. And they do a TON of research. They make sure they have everything so that it is PLAUSIBLE. That it very well could have happened. Some people take it to the point that a POD is simply a person not going into another room. And they use historical facts for that time period to map out from the POD.

The real problem is that what your presenting isn't plausible (as of the moment.) Thats what this site, and real Alternate History writers, deal in. Plausibility. Were the things required for that POD actually there? Did the CSA actually have the resources to pull something like this off in 1863? That is what they are trying to get you to understand. Was everything actually, HISTORICALLY, in place to allow the south to pull this sort of thing off? I don't mean winning or lossing with this plan, I mean did they actually have the troops available to pull these off, both simultaneously or sacrificing one of the fronts to assure a chance of victory on one of the fronts.

Plausibility is a very big thing around here. And not just regarding things like troop numbers and logistics. It also is in regard to historical figures. Having a person like Lee or Davis (some of whom probably know better than some of their relatives :p) acting so different from how they acted and thought historically will tick some people off here.


Let me put it too you this way. This site is not for the fast and loose alt history writer. This site is for the people who pay attention to the details, and will hit you on the head with a sledgehammer (metaphorically I hope) if you get them wrong.

Its the reason I haven't done anything else with my possible French Intervene in the ACW tl yet. I still need to find some good sources for the military and economic power of France during the late 1850's-early 1860's. If I don't find the information, I will be ranted up one wall and down another.
 
To to whom it may conern:

Be it known that i Valus36, being of a solid state of mind, have decreed that my atl known as LEE'S MASTER PLAN will no longer be update. I have come to this conclusion of my own accord. My reason for this is also my own. However, if anyone wants to take it and run with it, be my guest. I will however, be working on my new tl which will be posted in the immediant future. i hope you all will enjoy it when it becomes avaliable. my thanks to all who have replied to this atl. You have given me insight and have taught me valuable lessons. Thankyou all!

Coming soon to a Discussion Board near you:

Decision in the West: The Rise of Albert Sidney Jonhston by Valus36
 
To to whom it may conern:

Be it known that i Valus36, being of a solid state of mind, have decreed that my atl known as LEE'S MASTER PLAN will no longer be update. I have come to this conclusion of my own accord. My reason for this is also my own. However, if anyone wants to take it and run with it, be my guest. I will however, be working on my new tl which will be posted in the immediant future. i hope you all will enjoy it when it becomes avaliable. my thanks to all who have replied to this atl. You have given me insight and have taught me valuable lessons. Thankyou all!

Coming soon to a Discussion Board near you:

Decision in the West: The Rise of Albert Sidney Jonhston by Valus36

ah well, it had promise. on to other things.

This is all I have left to say
 
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