Leadership of a Fascist Russia

I think there might have been another thread about this, but it was a while ago and I can't find it through the search function:

What would a fascist government look like in Russia after the failure of the Bolsheviks in bringing the Revolution?

Who would be the leaders? What leaders/generals did the Whites have that would have been able to stear the nation to fascism if at all?

Again, sorry of this has already been discussed.
 
mmh, interesting.

Also I'm not talking about a Fascist state with holocausts and killing of minorities. Just a radically right-wing fascist Russian state.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
mmh, interesting.

Also I'm not talking about a Fascist state with holocausts and killing of minorities. Just a radically right-wing fascist Russian state.

So instead progroms and killing of minorities? That's basically what the Russian reactionary right entailed.
 
The two that come to my head would be Wrangel or Kolchak, Kolchak even more so.
Maybe, however while Wrangel wasnt quite as right wing as Kolchak was (and honestly Wrangel has a bit of a bad rep for some reason), according to wikipedia he was willing to take whatever measures were necessary to win the war, such as land reform and letting split off governments go, so if he does in fact win the civil war (and face it the war is decided on the European side of the Urals), he's a hero, then he could use his war hero rep and be a populist fascist leader due to the desperate reforms so the people support him, then bam, the ideal person for the job.

Not to mention Kolchak was sorta unpopular. He was certainly fascist enough.
 

Typo

Banned
So a Fascist Russian state would need to kill off its minorities (i.e use them as scapegoats like Nazi Germany)?
Well, not all its minorities since in 1914 Russia Russians were actually less than 50% of the population.

But Tsarist Russia was quite enthusiastic when it comes to pogroms and antisemitism in general.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Maybe, however while Wrangel wasnt quite as right wing as Kolchak was (and honestly Wrangel has a bit of a bad rep for some reason), according to wikipedia he was willing to take whatever measures were necessary to win the war, such as land reform and letting split off governments go, so if he does in fact win the civil war (and face it the war is decided on the European side of the Urals), he's a hero, then he could use his war hero rep and be a populist fascist leader due to the desperate reforms so the people support him, then bam, the ideal person for the job.

Not to mention Kolchak was sorta unpopular. He was certainly fascist enough.

Indeed. Really, Wrangel wasn't that bad of a person. I believe the whole title of "Black Baron" has made him into a sort of proto-Mussolini or such, when he was, really, a bit to the left of Franco all things considered.

Wrangel's Russia wouldn't be all that dystopic.

In short, Wrangel is a bad choice for a Fascist Russia. Mostly because he wasn't really that fascist. More Authoritarian Democrat than anything else.
 
Indeed. Really, Wrangel wasn't that bad of a person. I believe the whole title of "Black Baron" has made him into a sort of proto-Mussolini or such, when he was, really, a bit to the left of Franco all things considered.

Wrangel's Russia wouldn't be all that dystopic.

In short, Wrangel is a bad choice for a Fascist Russia. Mostly because he wasn't really that fascist. More Authoritarian Democrat than anything else.

Ah, but wouldn't that make him more interesting? An originally "decent" leader "forced" to harsh measures:rolleyes:, rather than "I'm evil because I am, whahaha!"?
 
Some interesting things happen when you try to transpose fascism to early twentieth century Russia. In early twentieth century Russia, the nation seems as it is nowhere else bound up with the person of the Tsar, who according to some legal theories was the actual owner of the inhabitants of Russia. And as other people note, the late Tsarist regime was already moving distressingly toward some of the characteristics of a fascist regime. For example: the Black Hundreds, the role of the regime in propagating anti-semitic propaganda, the sophisticated police state.

So one thing I would consider, if the necessary event in your timeline is the failure of an already-occurred Bolshevik Revolution, would be a reactionary Restorationist regime, perhaps led by a Romanov or with a Romanov figurehead working in tandem with extreme right-wing parties, or even with a captive monarch controlled by the regime. Unfortunately it's been years now since I've read Orlando Figes' "A People's Tragedy" (seriously one of the best history books I've ever read), so I couldn't be as much help as I would be if the material was fresher with me.

But I can't help but think that Roman Ungern Von Sternberg might be an interesting figure to work with in thinking about this. And he was, apparently, a fierce monarchist.
 
But I can't help but think that Roman Ungern Von Sternberg might be an interesting figure to work with in thinking about this. And he was, apparently, a fierce monarchist.

Most likely not. Or at least not a major figure. But hey maybe coming back from the far eastern/Mongolian front he could pass himself off as some sorta hero from an exotic front in the public mind (despite the fact that the far eastern front counted for zilch until the fate of the war was already decided).

Von Sternberg of the Desert? ;) Fancy
 
But I can't help but think that Roman Ungern Von Sternberg might be an interesting figure to work with in thinking about this. And he was, apparently, a fierce monarchist.

I'd love to see a plausible situation with him involved, but I think his mystical and violent tendencies would be too alienating for any support. If it can be managed though, perhaps something similar to the Iron Guard of Romania?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Here's a cross-post from one of the millions White Victory threads we have around here :rolleyes::p

Wolfpaw said:
The Whites win in late-1919-early 1920, something that is very, very plausible. A junta is established between Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, and Yudenich. It is decided that Wrangel becomes head of government (probably alongside Milyukov and Pepelyayev) while Denikin and Yudenich are put in charge of the military. Kolchak becomes an élément grise in Russian politics, sort of like a Hindenburg-Ludendorff mix; a figure given deference who sort of stays behind the scenes but is the man to call when "decisive measures" must be taken to reestablish "order."

Meanwhile, the near-universally beloved Grand Duke Nikolai becomes Tsar, though this time he is a constitutional monarch with negligible power at best. This not only satisfies traditionalists and democrats, but also provides the nation with an untainted figurehead that pretty much everybody can rally around.

After an ill-fated Russian experiment with parliamentary democracy à la pre-fascist Italy;
a theoretically liberal constitution ridden with institutional problems, a still-stratified society, instability, economic uncertainty, a political army. Kolchak (at the urging of Grand Duke Cyril who ascends the throne in 1929) finally steps in to reestablish "law and order" and becomes the de facto dictator of Russia. People who present a threat to his new order like Denikin and Kutepov and much of the Army high-command will probably be purged.

Kolchak probably dies some time in the '30s. During and after his reign, it's most likely that a movement like Aleksandr Kazem-Bek's Mladorossi gains momentum with its unique and popular (and typically fascist) slogans promoting both industrialization/modernization and traditionalism. Mladorossi the major (and eventually only) political party in Russia.

The charismatic and handsome Kazem-Bek becomes dictator after Kolchak kicks the bucket. How long his rule lasts is debatable due to his being of Azeri stock, but the major point is that his general philosophy (Tsar and the Soviets!) becomes the norm. His most likely successor is Anastasy Vonsyatsky (who may not be bigoted enough), maybe Konstantin Rodzayevsky.

Ethnicities that will most likely be targeted under the Whites (and I'm assuming we have pre-WWII Soviet borders here) are Jews (of course), Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians (i.e. people who regard themselves as "Ukrainians" rather than "Little Russians"), Volga Germans, Crimean Karaites, possibly Chinese, perhaps Finns, and maybe Azeris depending on if and how far Kazem-Bek falls. Obviously homosexuals and non-Orthodox will be persecuted, the only exception being Muslims. Also expect a great deal of anti-Western sentiment.

Caucasians and Central Asian tribesmen like Kazakhs and Kalmyks and Buryats and Turkmen will in all likelihood not be targeted for two main reasons; the anti-Bolshevism that the majority of these groups displayed, and the distinct lack of general anti-Russian sentiment amongst them. In fact, the tribesmen will probably join the Cossacks in the pantheon of "martial races" (excellent theory, RGB). Again, the fate of Azeris largely depends on the success or failure of Kazem-Bek.

Interestingly, the concept of "sophisticated secret policemen vs. partisan street thugs" like we see exemplified in the rivalry between the SS and SA already existed in Imperial Russia. The "sophisticated" aspect—the Okhrana—will be reestablished, expanded, and revitalized under the leadership of people like Mikhail Diterikhs. The "street thug" element will lie in the resurrected Yellow Shirts under the command of somebody like Lev Okhotin or Gen. Vladimir Kozmin.

Another thing of note is the viability of Konstantin Rodzayevsky as the successor to basically any post. Head of the Okhrana, head of the Yellow Shirts, even Vozhd (or whatever the head honcho spot is called); Rodzayevsk could potentially succeed to any one (or perhaps even two) of these positions.

Basically, the regime we get is a cross between Iron Guard Romania and Francoist Spain alongside some major elements of clerical fascism.


Assuming that the Whites' borders are the same as OTL's pre-War Soviet Union, there will be lots and lots and lots of revanchist and imperialistic aims aimed at Poland, the Baltic States, and Finland. We also shouldn't discount potential adventures in Asia led by folks like Ungern fon Shternberg (if he's still around) or Semyonov.

 
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Actually, I have to say that to some extent you must have read my mind. Essentially, it wouldn't be necessary for him to actually take power militarily so much as to forge a particularly enticing personal mythology, which considering Ungern Von Sternberg's character and history probably wouldn't be hard. In the wake of Russia's humiliations at the end of World War I, that could be a pretty potent basis for an authoritarian and militarist political movement, especially when combined with Romanov-nostalgia.

Most likely not. Or at least not a major figure. But hey maybe coming back from the far eastern/Mongolian front he could pass himself off as some sorta hero from an exotic front in the public mind (despite the fact that the far eastern front counted for zilch until the fate of the war was already decided).

Von Sternberg of the Desert? ;) Fancy
 
Hell, if Wrangel had been the one calling the shots in the beginning of the Civil War, instead of towards the end, the Whites probably would have won.

Also--don't forget Kornilov.
 
I suspect a fascist/far right Russia would bear a lot of similarities to Romania. The Bolsheviks would be defeated, but more by somewhat traditional forces who then form government. Unfortunately being in government just serves to discredit the traditional right wing (and the generals likely to bump off the Bolsheviks all seem to have been crappy administrators, so no easy fixes for Russia's problems). The Left have similarly been discredited or defeated... which leaves a far right alternative.

Like the Romanian Iron Guard, the church/religion plays a strong role. The Russian Orthodox Church already had elements involved in the Black Hundreds and pogroms prior to WWI, so it's not that far of a stretch. It also takes an existing 'structure' with existing appeal and bonds onto it a relatively modern political engine. Which fits the bill of fascism, with the weird mix of old world romanticism and new order revolution. The religious tones serve as an easy 'in' for mobilising support, communicating the party program in terms that are accessible. If the church actually supported them, then you have a national wide network. Like Codreanu, perhaps we could expect a fuhrer-figure who is believed to perform miracles. Anti-semitism driven by religion wasn't unusual in Russia in this period, and the association with Bolshevism with Jews/Satan wasn't uncommon either. Perhaps the Russian Iron Guard equivilent attack the government for its links with foreign powers?

So you end up with a fight between the traditional right and the ultra-nutty right. Romania's Iron Guard never achieve enough support to be entirely successful, and ironically the Nazis ended up siding with Antonescu against them. One could see an alternate outcome in Russia perhaps:
- The alternative history removes the bogeyman of Communism from the rest of Europe. Maybe the traditional right in central Europe holds its ground better ATL, or the Nazi-equivilents will be more inspired by events in Moscow? Could change who (if anyone) intervenes.
- The Russian Iron Guard equivilent might prove to be more popular/effective than their Romanian equivilent. The Iron Guard had to compete with other agrarian movements, the only Russian agrarian party was the SRs, which were too left wing for the likes of Kolchak and Denikin. Ironically the apparent left-lean to Russian populist politics might help to smooth the way for 'national socialists'.
- Who knows, maybe having Romania and Russia going through the same thing results in their playing off each other somehow.
 
- The alternative history removes the bogeyman of Communism from the rest of Europe. Maybe the traditional right in central Europe holds its ground better ATL, or the Nazi-equivilents will be more inspired by events in Moscow? Could change who (if anyone) intervenes.
It's certainly going to make it harder to paint the left as Muscovite stooges, that's certain - it helps that the communists aren't going to be Muscovite stooges, of course. Actually, this might end up helping the moderate left - after all, the Foreign Menace to many of the European countries would be right-wing extremists here.
 
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